Be Excellent To Each Other

Yesterday I trusted NTLViriginWhatever with the mind-bogglingly simple task of changing my broadband package down a notch from 20meg to 10meg, as I simply do not use all of that bandwidth.

The changeover would take two seconds, at a random time from two hours to twenty four hours away, but would be so quick I didn't notice.

Gngghhhhh.

So, by the time I reached my computer it was, obviously, off. Ten phonecalls to different staff ('phone customer services, they set it up wrong') ('no, phone tech support, we set it up right!') over and over I was promised it'd be on by this morning, so I had no ninnynet since yesterday morning (boo...)

On top of this I (still) don't have a TV (having to get a new computer instead, but it's OK, because I have now discovered the site that not must be named for 'legally obtaining' British Television shows of past and present, great stuff). I was running out of stuff that I had already legally obtained though, so I started to read, just like in the days before teevee. But then, and I guess deep down I knew that something like this might happen 'pooof' and my electricity went out, just as it got dark.

So now I have no TV, no internet and no light (apart from the handy squeezable pig torch that I got from DealExtereme!) and now no phone either, as my phone needs electricity to work as it's a cordless. I then realised that I was completely cut off from the outside world, and if, say, America was abducted by aliens or something I'd have no way of finding out.

So, I went to bed at 9pm.

The internet still wasn't working today (though electricity was back on at 11:30 last night as the lights all suddenly switching on, making me think I was being raided). I phoned up Virgin and they said to talk to tech support, who told me to talk to customer services, etc. Apparently customer services 'couldn't do anything' until I threatened to sue them for loss of earnings or something random, at which point I was put on hold and no more than five seconds later the little light of joy that is the 'ready' button started flickering out of the corner of my eye. "OK, Miss Hill, we've sorted that out for you". Seems they could do something about it, after all...

So hooray! I am back in the 21st century, ready to play Mafia Scum. Also, I ate three ice-lollies last night, as they were going to melt anyway, so not all bad

There's nothing I hate more than these twat-bags who say they can do absolutely nothing for you until you threaten them with something, then magically it all works. Why the hell not just do it in the first place? *splode*

Wouldn't do anything unless you threatened to sue? Sheesh.

I know - I felt quite bad as I had to build myself up for nearly half an hour to be 'angry' on the phone and had to shout at poor 'Melanie', but I knew that was the only way I was going to get it fixed after she told me to again call tech support. I did apologise to her afterwards and said that I wasn't trying to be unpleasant but knew it was the only way I was going to get it fixed, and we had a little chat and a laugh about it and I said I hoped she had less angry customers than me for the rest of the day, but she was quite understanding about it, but I was a bit shakey with the loud complaining

Mimi,

I really do think that you are possibly the most considerate person in the world.

I'm pleased you got stuff sorted out, as well.

MImi > Mother Theresa > Ghandi

You're cute Mimi, I can't imagine having to build myself up to be angry, it comes to naturally for me

But still, I feel bad when I have to shout at the nice people when I call. Very often though, a nice person will totally defuse me and instead I'll try to get them to emphathise with me. Once in a blue moon you come across someone who will really pull his/her arse out and go right around the houses on your behalf to help you out, which is super. On the other hand, you often encounter some seriously obstructive people who refuse to do even basic things for you, at which point it's shout/demand manager time.

After moaning the bollocks out of Viking Direct the other week, they sent me a letter this week offering me a 15% discount on any future purchases, which is nice.

My wife is excellent at getting mad, it's her special power.

I think it was mostly that no-one could actually be bothered to investigate it properly so just kept passing the buck to the other side.

It was magic how she put me on hold and the little light went 'ping', though.

Mali, Zardoz,

I just think that it wasn't really her fault, and it was probably the first call of the day as I called at 9am, and I only had to be angry to get someone to look into it, which she wasn't going to do, but she got it sorted and I didn't want to get her day off to a bad start with my angry speak, so I did want to explain that it wasn't personal and that she was perfectly pleasant and helpful as soon as I convinced her (albeit by threatening to sue) to just investigate it a bit further. She was quite sweet afterwards though and we had a little chat just as I was setting up which made me feel better that she knew I liked her, really, which I did. I made a note of her name in case I do write to complaint so I can thank her for being the person who took the step to get it sorted, and to thank her for that.

Oh, I do have to build myself up to be angry. I mostly never get angry, just a bit upset, er, because I am a wimp

You should get your wife a cape, Zardoz

Oh! And there was a plus to last night's non-events! Trying to conserve the last of my downloaded TV content I put on a DVD and watched The Princess Bride for the billionth time, which made me feel so happy for an hour and a half.

Don't worry, my lady is the name - upset before anger. It's sweet in a marginally annoying way, because the correct action is to crush the offender with a wave of venomous hate

On the bright side, you got to eat three ice lollies.

I love ice lollies. They're just about my favouritest thing. I eat them all year round. Om nom nom.

Ice lollies AND Princess Bride.

Maybe it would turn out that yesterday was the best day ever and that should go around purposefully breaking my stuff

Funny thing is that I never seem to get any emails, but whenever I can't access the internet for a day or two I seem to have hundreds - you don't notice the slow drip, dripping into your inbox, but when they come all at once they seems quite numerous.

Hmm. Probably the best option is to convince them that you *are* mad, in the calmest and most reasonable manner.

This would avoid actual upset on all sides, whilst they tick the "upset" box on the computer, and things happen.

A bit like Arthur Dent convincing the property developer that since he's going to be lying in front of their bulldozers all day, they may as well take it as read and cover for him while he goes off down the pub with Ford.

In, as you say, the mud.

I can't recall the last time I got properly angry with anyone.

Not this time, I don't think. I kind of started out saying that I was very angry, but saying it very calmly, and she just said 'I can only check the computer that says it's active, there is nothing more I can do, you have to call tech support' over and over. I had to step up to actually sounding angry, and then the threat of being sued before she said she'd put me on hold and look into it.

I think, sadly, it all comes about because, of course, people want a nice easy day at work and don't actually want to get involved in any case deeper than their usual ;yeah, we'll set that up for you' s when a problem actually arises, no-one actually wants to think of it as being their responsibility, and you end up on your 11th phone call, as I did .

I got angry with the idiots in Woolworths the other weekend and to be honest, it felt fantastic. I'd qued up for about 10 minutes (and I was on crutches) with a copy of GTA4 only to be told it was out of stock, and I erupted with 'Well why doesn't it say it's out of stock on the fucking sign?', pointing over to the 360 section. Then I hobbled off LEAVING THE CASE ON THE DESK and out of the store, where I congratulated myself on an excellent public strop.

Awww

I have queued for things to be told they are out of stock before, too. It is annoying as in the back of your mind you are thinking that someone is probably buying the last copy in the shop next door as you are being told and you might just have got there first if they put a not in stock sign up.

It's especially annoying when a shop has about 30 dummy cases up there, making stock seem abundant, but don't actually have a copy of the game and no sign up to say as much.

Did you find a copy of GTA in the end?

What really got on my tits was that it's probably their policy to hide the fact that the game's out of stock so that when you get to the till they can take a deposit and put you on a waiting list. Well fuck that. No, still haven't got a copy but I haven't exactly been trying all that hard. I just could have done with it that weekend as I was practically disabled and wasn't really in a position to go out socialising. Now of course I'm too embarrassed to go back into Woolworths.

I stopped buying games from Woolworths when they refused to sell me a game because I was 13 (or so) and it had this on the back:



Fuck off, Woolies.

back to more important matters... what kind of ice lolly were they?

Ooh, that's technically illegal over here isn't it? 18+ ELSPA ratings are only for Europe, over here such a game would need a BBFC 18.

I can remember once when I worked at GS getting a roasting from my area manager because I put an 'Out Of Stock' sign on our Xbox 360 console dummy boxes when, shock! horror!, we had none in stock. Apparentely, this is "negative advertising". Making your customers queue up in the hope you have such items in stock, only for you to tell them that you don't and that they effectively queued for nothing, is apparently providing excellent customer service and they'll definitely want to come back to you after that.

They were like sorbet lollies - one orange and two lemon and elderflower.

Probably, but everyone knows more than 13-year-olds, so they don't listen, even if you're right.

I always thought the ELSPA ratings were advisory only and not in any way a restriction on their sale?

Um... what's wrong with that?

No it's not illegal, 16s and 18s have to be referred to the BBFC now (and probably then) but they don't HAVE to rate them. The obvious example is the 18+ PEGI rated BMX XXX.

If they were using that on an 18+ BBFC game and not the BBFC sticker, that's very illegal but they still shouldn't have sold you it. If it was a 12 BBFC and had that sticker, you're fine.

You'd have to explain further, and perhaps name the game, but it seems Woolies were in the right. Selling you that would probably have been instant gross misconduct dismissal. (and if it was actually BBFC 18, the small matter of 2 years in the clink)

When I worked in HMV ( ) I was told to only go by the little round symbol, if there was one, that you see also on DVDs and so forth.

Parents are stupid anyway - so many would buy their 8 year olds games with 15 or 18 certificates. You'd point out that it was only suitable for such ages and they'd look at you to tell you to mind your own business.

The funniest time was when a kid of about eight wanted to buy a magazine that was, I think a 15 certificate and I couldn't sell it to him. He bought his father to the desk, who happened to be the world's largest man, who shouted at me 'are you f***ing stupid or something? It's a f***ing MAGAZINE!'. I wanted to say 'so is Big 'n' Bouncy', or something like that, but stopped myself Anyway, it was my job and if I had sold it I would have been trouble, and rules is rules.

It was Die Hard Trilogy on the Playstation. It doesn't have an 18+ certificate, and those recommended age ratings aren't legally enforceable, as far as I know. I could be wrong!

It may have been Woolie's policy to use those ratings as their own guide to suitability, though.

Certainly could have been. Either way, I bought it in another shop with no trouble whatsoever.

Not legally enforceable no, but all retailers treat them as they are, or should. If not, like I say, gross misconduct on the employee's part. I would certainly have fired anyone on the spot for it.

Die Hard Trilogy WAS a 18+ ELSPA (see box #ebayphotohosting">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PS1-2-DIE-HARD-TR ... otohosting here), so the retailer is still entirely in the right. Sorry but your boycott has been utterly pointless and any GAME/HMV/GS employee doing his job would have refused you.

If retailers didn't treat them that way there would be absolutely no fucking point in them existing in the first place.

When I was working in HMV we were actually told that these type of labels:



Were just a suggestion and as long as you pointed this out to the buyer then they were fully entitled to sell the game to them. As I said, it was only the ones hat are the same as the film classification symbols that we were instructed to enforce.

That classics version wasn't the one I was trying to buy. The original certainly didn't have a real 18 certificate on the front.

Either way, I'll just agree to disagree. I don't see the point in arguing things into the ground.

edit:

Nynfortoo - I would have sold that to you in HMV under the guidelines we had there, just for balance with what you are saying. I would have explained that the system was there as a guidance, but if you still wanted it then a sale would be made according to our rules.

On the front or not, the game WAS rated 18 by ELSPA and all retailers are and should be committed to treating them the same.

(The sticker would at the time have been the one you posted and would have been on the back of the real box)

Excellent. Next time I'm 13 and you're still working in HMV, I'll come to you

Either way, it was a rubbish game.

Oh now you've gone too far.

Elspa says that it is (was?) a voluntary system and not law-enforced



So I guess if it was voluntary and not law enforced then HMV decided not to actually use that system. Perhaps it was just different in the chain you worked in, Dudley?

We'd have sold it to you in GS too. When I worked for Electronics Boutique years ago, ELSPA was taken seriously and you weren't meant to sell them to anyone underage. Doing so would've resulted in a telling off, but not a sacking (unless you'd been doing it repeatedly).

At GS, we considered them an advisory. Again, you shouldn't really sell them to anyone underage, but no one actually gave that much of a shit. The BBFC ratings, on the other hand, are a far more serious matter.

I do think the law has changed since though - I'm pretty sure PEGI ratings are enforceable now.

Seriously though Duds, I'd have loved to have seen you sack someone instantly over selling an ELSPA rated game to someone underage. Gross misconduct? I've a feeling your HR department would've told you to "get to fucking fuck", or words to that effect.

It wasn't legal.

And it may not have been the case then but now all chains I know of are signed up to treat it as if it was.

For the simple self-evident reason that if you don't, they're completely worthless. The whole thing was designed to stop wholesale BBFCing of every game. It's largely succeeded, but if shops don't respect them it wouldn't work at all.

Frankly I think it SHOULD be illegal and if I'd seen any shop assistant ignore them I would have complained.

The current rules on the replacement PEGI system is that 16+ and 18+ have to be offered to the BBFC, they might not take them.



Nope, it happened several times in other stores. It was part of the contract.

If you can't be fucked to check the ELSPA age, you could easily sell a BBFC one, leaving you in prison for 2 years and the company fined a massive amount. We even kept a diary of every refusal for possible later defence.

Except ELSPA was a voluntary organisation giving recommended age ratings to games that were exempt from legal BBFC ones.

It was replaced by PEGI in 2003 who, on their site, describe their system as:



Doesn't sound like an enforcement to me.

Finally, payback for the Mountain Dew incident.

Oh no you didn't.

Please try to read what I'm saying, I'm using short words.

1) NO It's not legal, I've said that in every single fucking post damnit.

2) If you don't treat it as if it was, it might as well not exist. It is clearly morally right to enforce it and if you don't the BBFC WOULD have stepped in. Now EVERY major retailer is signed up to treat it so and to ignore it at both GAME and Blockbuster was instant dismissal.

And good thing too, it's shit like shops ignore age ratings that got Manhunt 2 banned.

Why am I even doing this...?

It's never been 'instant dissmissal' anywhere I worked - at most just a telling off - simply because no laws have been broken. ELSPA and PEGI are just advisory, so that a concerned parent, rare though they may be, can take a look at the label to determine whether or not the game is suitable for their child. Since all the places I worked at would've also let the same concerned parent return the game if their child had bought it when they weren't about, it was never an issue.

I had to enforce it properly at GAME/EB, but at GS I just used to use common sense. If the kid looked way younger than the age rating, I'd refuse the sale, but if they were in their teens and looked fairly mature, no problem.

EDIT: Also bearing in mind that Die Hard Trilogy is the only ELSPA 18+ that I'm aware of ever being sold in the UK (though I don't doubt there are others). Pretty much every other game was a 16+. If I was faced with an 18+, I'd have probably taken that more seriously.

Hey, there's no need to start patronising me, man.

I'm gonna leave it at this.

Yes, we've seen you post that Dudley.

I think where it's been confused is because you said a couple of times:


Which I don't think has been the case. We all know they are not legally binding now, that's fine. But I don't think that all retailers have the same policies, which you seemed to be suggesting they did. We just used them as an advisory measure to point out to potential buyers. Anyway, no point getting into a tizz about it

It's not patronising when you seemed to keep accusing me of not knowing something I kept saying.



BMX XXX, which really WAS a poor game.



Back them possibly not, by 2003 certainly every retailer I'd ever heard of was in the credits for the training video that made precisely that point. And so they should because again, ignoring them makes them worthless and is why we can't have nice things. The government has treatened on multiple occasions to make BBFC rating compulsory and that's an organisation that sues it's own appeals board to stop you playing Manhunt 2.

I should say I'm VERY militant with regards to age ratings. I would make PEGI legally enforced and close the current loophole where parents can buy 18+ games for their kids. In exchange of course, the BBFC would have to not ban any 18 rated game.

Everyone wins except bad parents and idiot kids and we get uncut versions of games that have been cut in some territories (not always ours). Examples include Manhunt 2, Carmageddon, GTA4, GTA A, Fahrenheit, Ninja Gaiden....

I misread that as 'adversary', which also works.



Whu-whu-whu-whu-wha?