Cavey wrote:
Unsurprisingly, I disagree Cras.
Labour's principal problem is their child-like idealism (despite the Livingstone debacle). Wouldn't it be fab to only deal with nice people and cuddly world leaders... fuck me, we'd have embassies in Norway and Sweden at a push.
It is, or should be, the first glimmerings of how the real world is, and the real-world need for compromise, when you reach 7 or 8 and realise that actually, it's not possible (or even desirable) to demand everything your own way.
Idealism and compromise aren't binary opposites. It is entirely incumbent on those that choose to lead a nation to lead it with idealism, while acceding to compromise where necessary. Abandoning idealism for realpolitik is lazy and cowardly.
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"Cuddling up to Saudi Arabia"... you'd have our Prime Minister pissing off a key ally and market, in the same way as USA/Trump? Wow, that would feel *so* good, right up until absolutely no-one wanted anything to do with us, or trade with us, and your principles (which Trump or anyone else would care precisely fuck all about) would cost millions of Brits their livelihoods.
Millions of Brits? Key ally and market? The only decent sized export we have to Saudi Arabia is arms, and we do so in the full knowledge that they are used in campaigns like the bombing of Yemen, carried out in a way utterly contrary to any civilised rules of war. Selling weapons to a country that is not a Geneva signatory should be UTTERLY past the line. Saudi Arabia's human rights record is vile, worse than Iran. It's a nation that is a primary source of terrorist activity, recruitment, and funding. Oh but they have oil, and they let the US build airbases. Our responsibility as a nation of decent moral standing is to absolutely be there in Saudi Arabia - promoting religious freedom, equal rights for women and LGBT persons, and the growth of democracy. Anything else is utter moral cowardice. Also quite why holding a strong line with Saudi Arabia would cause nobody to want to have anything to do with us I have no idea.
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"Flip flopped"... the country democratically and fairly voted for Brexit and whether you, me or anyone else likes that, or questions why we had a referendum in the first place - it's done now and she, as PM of the country, has to deliver on said people's democratic will. (We are, still, a Democracy after all). (Yet again, Party Politics isn't having everything your own way because you know, if it was, there would be no Party at all, just 500-odd MPs all shouting their own individual agenda).
Well, there's a few problems with that. Primarily we're a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. The referendum was there to advise MPs on the desires of the electorate. "She has to deliver on said people's democratic will" is factually incorrect.
Even beyond that, the people want brexit, I can reasonably see how it makes sense to go ahead with Brexit. There is, however, no excuse for:
* Absolutely refusing to entertain retaining membership of the single market
* Refusing any form of parliamentary oversight over the plan, the deal, or the process
* Spending a fortune of taxpayer's money in the High Court/Supreme Court in a childish act of petty pride, and losing
* Even entertaining the idea of not having a deal and falling back on WTO trade rules. For an idea of how ridiculous this is, here's an article from Leave HQ (!!) that demonstrates just how catastrophic that would be:
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128Quote:
So yeah, it's like I said, Cras. Grown-ups.
Labour is (at best) akin to a really crap Sixth Form pressure group, not a government. Except even that's being generous in the light of the latest developments.
It's fine being a complete idealist when you're 18 or whatever but there comes a time in life, when one is older, wiser (and a fucktonne more cynical), that pragmatism has to enter into an equation where, in fact, there are far fewer black-and-white issues that you'd ever hitherto realised (or hoped). That's life....
I just don't buy this. Anyone in politics who isn't there to make the world a better place for its most downtrodden, poor, and victimised is someone who has no right to stand in that democratic chamber.
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GoddessJasmine wrote:
Drunk, pulled Craster's pork, waiting for brdyime story,reading nuts. Xz