Taking the Brexit

Cavey · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 18:29

Grim... wrote:

So the SNP want another indyref because then they can stay in the EU, because becoming independent turned out to be A Bad Thing.

So they want to be independent from one thing so they don't have to be independent from another...

Yeah, rationality and facts have nowt to do with it.

It's not even as good as that - the Prime Minister of Spain has said, repeatedly, that Spain would veto any application to join the EU by an independent Scotland (as, indeed, have France also).

Trust me though, you just can't tell these people, they just won't have it - it's like telling a 4 year old Santa doesn't exist. Apparently it's all OK because "SNPbaaaaaad!!!" and EU diplomats saying nice things to Nicola Sturgeon. :roll:

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Cras wrote:

LewieP wrote:

They want to retain their status as members of the EU.

I think it's entirely rational.

The previous indyref was a choice between "Independence & EU membership" and "Staying in the Union & EU membership".

Now it's a choice between "Independence & EU membership" and "Staying in the Union & leaving the EU".

It's a fundamentally different choice.

Don't believe that's the case though. It would be 'Independence and being able to rejoin the EU'. If we start the exit process before Scotland secedes from the Union, there's no framework in place for them to stop the exit and stay behind. If we don't exit, I don't believe they'd retain EU membership automatically as an ex-member of an EU state. They'd also never get membership without being made to take the Euro either, so they'd lose the ability to keep the pound which was a key prop of the indy campaign last time around.

The whole thing is unprecedented. I can't blame Sturgeon at least trying to see if a deal can be made so they never leave, or indeed trying to find a way to throw a spanner in the works of Britain leaving in the first place. She has a clear democratic mandate to do that.

I agree it's unclear how exactly it might play out, but considering another independence referendum has to be on the cards.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 18:50

The obvious model is Greenland. Still part of Denmark but not in the EU.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

Kern wrote:

The obvious model is Greenland. Still part of Denmark but not in the EU.

I'm not sure that's the case. Greenland is an Autonomous Territory of Denmark, and I don't believe that an Autonomous Territory is permitted to be an EU Member State - so if it were the other way around and Denmark had left with Greenland wishing to stay in, that would not have worked.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

LewieP wrote:

I can't blame Sturgeon at least trying to see if a deal can be made so they never leave, or indeed trying to find a way to throw a spanner in the works of Britain leaving in the first place. She has a clear democratic mandate to do that.

Oh, absolutely agree. I don't fancy her chances of anything other than UK leaves EU, Scotland leaves UK, Scotland joins EU however. Especially as guaranteed that Westminster wouldn't permit the secession of Scotland during Brexit negotiations, it would have to occur after.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 19:17

Cras wrote:

Kern wrote:

The obvious model is Greenland. Still part of Denmark but not in the EU.

I'm not sure that's the case. Greenland is an Autonomous Territory of Denmark, and I don't believe that an Autonomous Territory is permitted to be an EU Member State - so if it were the other way around and Denmark had left with Greenland wishing to stay in, that would not have worked.

I'm not an expert on Danish constitutional politics, but at the time Denmark joined it lacked that autonomy. It left in 1985 after a vote.

Wikitruth

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

Kern wrote:

Cras wrote:

Kern wrote:

The obvious model is Greenland. Still part of Denmark but not in the EU.

I'm not sure that's the case. Greenland is an Autonomous Territory of Denmark, and I don't believe that an Autonomous Territory is permitted to be an EU Member State - so if it were the other way around and Denmark had left with Greenland wishing to stay in, that would not have worked.

I'm not an expert on Danish constitutional politics, but at the time Denmark joined it lacked that autonomy. It left in 1985 after a vote.

Wikitruth

Well yes, when it joined it was part of Denmark. If this were the other way around and Scotland wished to leave the EU and the UK stay, the Greenland model would work. But not this way around.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 19:28

I could picture a scenario where we move to a very loose confederal system and England/Wales becomes the Greenland. Heck of a lot of constitutional engineering to get there.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

What if Johnson is such a terrible person at the Foreign Office that Scotland stays in the UK just so they don't have to talk to him?

WHAT IF THAT'S THE PLAN?!

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

Kern wrote:

I could picture a scenario where we move to a very loose confederal system and England/Wales becomes the Greenland. Heck of a lot of constitutional engineering to get there.

London hears this proposal and approves. As long as we're in Denmark too.

Mainly for the bacon.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:00

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:

Kern wrote:

I could picture a scenario where we move to a very loose confederal system and England/Wales becomes the Greenland. Heck of a lot of constitutional engineering to get there.

London hears this proposal and approves. As long as we're in Denmark too.

Mainly for the bacon.

We'd be Vikings!

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:00

MaliA wrote:

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:

Kern wrote:

I could picture a scenario where we move to a very loose confederal system and England/Wales becomes the Greenland. Heck of a lot of constitutional engineering to get there.

London hears this proposal and approves. As long as we're in Denmark too.

Mainly for the bacon.

We'd be Vikings!

Lego Vikings!

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:00

MaliA wrote:

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:

Kern wrote:

I could picture a scenario where we move to a very loose confederal system and England/Wales becomes the Greenland. Heck of a lot of constitutional engineering to get there.

London hears this proposal and approves. As long as we're in Denmark too.

Mainly for the bacon.

We'd be Vikings!

Lego Vikings!

O/

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 20:00

MaliA wrote:

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:

Kern wrote:

I could picture a scenario where we move to a very loose confederal system and England/Wales becomes the Greenland. Heck of a lot of constitutional engineering to get there.

London hears this proposal and approves. As long as we're in Denmark too.

Mainly for the bacon.

We'd be Vikings!

Lego Vikings!

O/

\○

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38642

Mali, we need to talk

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:04

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

What if Johnson is such a terrible person at the Foreign Office that Scotland stays in the UK just so they don't have to talk to him?

WHAT IF THAT'S THE PLAN?!

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:05

They didn't wear horned hats

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:08

A little known fact about vikings is they only ate spam

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:09

What did they come in?

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:09

And the Viking women did all the fighting.

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:10

Kern wrote:

What did they come in?

The Danish women.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:10

Hordes

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 21:15

Kern wrote:

Hordes

Let the rest of us have some!

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Kern wrote:

They didn't wear horned hats

Hats!?!?!??!

myp · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 23:08

MaliA wrote:

A little known fact about vikings is they only ate spam

Well he does look like Cras

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Well, shit. This is a thing: the idea that US trade negotiators, as part of a new UK-US trade deal, will kowtow to Big Pharma and force changes to the NHS. Not an empty threat, it almost happened in Australia. That's scary as fuck.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... 9979001861

The big Brexit prize: breaking the NHS by @alanbeattie (https://t.co/jL5bFrmYt0). pic.twitter.com/ONcXj3X5Kx
— Jo Maugham QC (@JolyonMaugham) July 18, 2016

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16625

Struggling to imagine that Hunt et al would give a fuck. I honestly think that Tories don't really care if it gets replaced by something better just as long as the NHS is destroyed. It's the only way to explain their actions. It offends their fuck-headed ideology that much.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

I mostly agree with markg. The direction of travel under thirty years of Thatcher/Major/Blair/Cameron has been monetarism and free markets: privatisation, deregulation, neoliberalism, and globalisation. Against that background, a single state-run healthcare system sticks out like a sore thumb. We know there's no shortage of appetite to get rid of it from some factions within the Conservative party. Let's hope they do not get empowered any further.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

a single state-run healthcare system sticks out like a sore thumb.

Indeed. Like the Pyramids, or the Great Wall of China.

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Well, shit. This is a thing: the idea that US trade negotiators, as part of a new UK-US trade deal, will kowtow to Big Pharma and force changes to the NHS. Not an empty threat, it almost happened in Australia. That's scary as fuck.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... 9979001861

The big Brexit prize: breaking the NHS by @alanbeattie (https://t.co/jL5bFrmYt0). pic.twitter.com/ONcXj3X5Kx
— Jo Maugham QC (@JolyonMaugham) July 18, 2016

That's absolutely terrifying. Contrary to what Leave were claiming, staying in the EU was by far the best option for preserving the NHS.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11895

Jesus, of course this was going to happen. Anyone who thought otherwise is crazy. And big Pharma bosses love social care and best for patient practice, dr fidelity, etc. They also dislike hiring the cheapest option and rail roading dissenters.

MaliA · **Posted:** Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:55

Hey! Cras!

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

*nods*

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Ford will be putting car prices up due to the weak pound and is considering closing its last two UK factories:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 62561.html

krazywookie · **Posted:** Sun Jul 31, 2016 23:32

All my suppliers (bicycles and parts) have put their prices up

people having less money and prices going up can only mean bad stuff for my wee business. Only just got going too. Thanks brexit.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:36

BBC 2's Brexit: the battle for Britain recaps the past couple of months with some interesting interviews with leading figures in both campaigns. Lord Mandelson blames Corbyn, Will Straw comes across as being annoyed by everyone, and the head of Leave guy is insufferably smug whenever he is criticised over the £350m lie. Still very much a first draft, but if you've got the time it's worth watching.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Cameron's 'renegotiation' was a distraction that prevented the IN side from building its campaign two or three years ago, and the lack of positive arguments to complement the economic stuff just turned floaters off.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:00

The first parliamentary statement by the secretary of state and accompanying debate didn't really enlighten us much about progress (disappointingly, no MP asked him if we had left yet).

Good to know that one Tory cut through the crap and pressed Mr Davis on the most pressing issue he'll be facing:

Quote:

Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)

In warmly welcoming my right hon. Friend to his very well-deserved position, I implore him to have early discussions with our right hon. Friends the Home Secretary, the Secretary of State for Transport and others to ensure that the words “European Union” are removed at the earliest possible moment from UK passports and driving licences.

Mr Davis

I will draw my hon. Friend’s comments to their attention.

And there's always this horrifying image:

Quote:

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)

May I welcome the Secretary of State to his position, not least because he headed up Conservative GO? Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks of being made Secretary of State is that he can no longer wear the green tie. He has been as clear as he can—one of his great advantages is straight talking—but will he give us his best estimate now of the date on which he thinks we will actually leave? I am asking for his best estimate. We will not hold him to it—nobody is that worried—but will he just give us a date?

Mr Davis

That is a very good try. I am sure that, in his youth, my hon. Friend was a great seducer, but I am not going to be seduced. [Interruption.]

The B Teams were discussing the petition about re-running the whole affair, but nothing really interesting was said, other than an SNP member getting angry because the chair wanted him to stick to the topic on the order paper.

Quote:

Ian Blackford
I am not making a point of order. I am making a speech that is legitimate in the context of the debate. People in Scotland will see exactly what is happening here: the Chair is refusing to allow the elected representatives of the people of Scotland to give a speech. That is the clear judgment of what has been delivered by this Chair.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16625

I thought it was very informative about progress, there hasn't been any. They keep trying to imply that they are keeping their cards close to their chest for the upcoming negotatiations but it's clear that they are riven with internal conflict and still haven't got the first fucking clue what they're doing and still no answers whatsoever to all the most important questions. I'm sure it'll all work out just fine.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:21

Looks like "We totally trying to get a good deal and we'll keep trying until we do but stay in the EU until then" as Cras said would happen

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

We should nuke them from orbit.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:26

MrChris wrote:

We should nuke them from orbit.

At least that way we'd get rid of Trident.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:28

Mr Davis' absence from front bench politics over the past eight years is one of the great 'what -ifs' of recent times. He would have been very good as Home Secretary and probably would have been a strong prime minister. If I write an alternate history, I'm going to have the 2015 David Davis v David Miliband election debate as a key scene setter.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16625

MaliA wrote:

Looks like "We totally trying to get a good deal and we'll keep trying until we do but stay in the EU until then" as Cras said would happen

I don't think just kicking it into the long grass is really going to work for very long with this one, though.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:33

markg wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Looks like "We totally trying to get a good deal and we'll keep trying until we do but stay in the EU until then" as Cras said would happen

I don't think just kicking it into the long grass is really going to work for very long with this one, though.

What fucks me off is Farage now strutting around as if he has a cast-iron mandate for every single pledge he feels like talking about, whilst utterly ignoring other ones.

"People overwhelmingly voted for a points-based immigration system"

NO THEY FUCKING DIDN'T! Even most of the xenophobes and racists didn't. If you implement this if anything it gives you less control; just ask Australia.

I truly hate the man, and now regret not hurling verbal abuse at him when I walked past him in the pub (though he did look terrified of me as I was wearing a hoodie).

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:37

I think May is tough enough to stick to her plan and her thoughts on it. I think she's runni g through the motions of getting it going and will start to draw lines in the sand. Although I dislike her for a fair few reasons, I think she'll steera decent path through this whilst telling the hard exiters to pipe down.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:45

MaliA wrote:

I think May is tough enough to stick to her plan and her thoughts on it. I think she's runni g through the motions of getting it going and will start to draw lines in the sand. Although I dislike her for a fair few reasons, I think she'll steera decent path through this whilst telling the hard exiters to pipe down.

I think she'll just keep on saying "Brexit means Brexit" and hope someone else carries the can for the amazing shit-show that will no doubt happen.

Still, they have over 300 people working on it now, which is a lot.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

MaliA wrote:

her plan.

Citation needed.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:50

Cras wrote:

MaliA wrote:

her plan.

Citation needed.

Hope.

It's about all I have left.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:59

MaliA wrote:

Hope.

It's about all I have left.

Hey, we've also taken back control!

Be Excellent To Each Other

Taking the Brexit

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