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How do you feel about Britain leaving the EU?
1) I want the UK out of the EU at all costs. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
2) I want out of the EU, unless there is some show stopper that means we should stay in. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
3) I want out of the EU, but could easily be persuaded to stay in. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
4) Not sure if we should stay in or out. 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
5) I want to stay in the EU, but could easily be persuaded to leave. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
6) I want to stay in the EU, unless there is a showstopper that means we should leave. 59%  59%  [ 22 ]
7) I want the UK to stay in the EU at all costs. 27%  27%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 37
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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:30 
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Lonewolves wrote:
He did say 'only the good things' tbf.

It is good, it's shaped me into the person who I am today.

I know you're still waiting for me to say 'aaaahh!'

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:46 
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Mr Russell wrote:
I know you're still waiting for me to say 'aaaahh!'

That's what, about six years now? Still waiting.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:47 
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Are you a dentist?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:54 
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Yes

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Cras wrote:
Are you a dentist?

I told myp my Mum had died, and he still doesn't believe me, and is waiting for me to reveal it as a joke with a sort of 'aaaggh' noise.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:57 
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Paws for thought

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Mr Russell wrote:
Cras wrote:
Are you a dentist?

I told myp my Mum had died, and he still doesn't believe me, and is waiting for me to reveal it as a joke with a sort of 'aaaggh' noise.

It was, all things told, a little mean to not invite her to your wedding just to keep the joke going.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 13:15 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
You know who else wanted a unified Europe at all costs?

Post delivered.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 13:15 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
You know who else wanted a unified Europe at all costs?

Post delivered.


Well done, Curio!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 15:45 
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Sleepyhead

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Latest ICM polling has Leave ahead for the first time.

It's quite incredible the promises that the Leave figures are making st the moment. Still, I'm massively looking forwards to the savings of countless thousands of pounds as all our council tax bills and fuel bills are massively cut by the Conservatives...

Hmmmm.

Still, at least the Americans may elect their Trump before we elect ours.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 15:53 
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I can't shake the feeling lately that the world is headed for a total fucking meltdown with all these populist right wing fucknuts on the rise everywhere. The prospect of the EU disintegrating and Trump in the White House is frankly terrifying.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 16:01 
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markg wrote:
I can't shake the feeling lately that the world is headed for a total fucking meltdown with all these populist right wing fucknuts on the rise everywhere. The prospect of the EU disintegrating and Trump in the White House is frankly terrifying.

Although Austria have just voted in an independent president who was formerly with their Green Party, so it's not all bad news. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 16:04 
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Which would be more heartening if it weren't for the fact that it was an incredibly close run thing with a far right opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 16:12 
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markg wrote:
Which would be more heartening if it weren't for the fact that it was an incredibly close run thing with a far right opponent.

2nd place is just first loser

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 16:21 
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Lonewolves wrote:
markg wrote:
Which would be more heartening if it weren't for the fact that it was an incredibly close run thing with a far right opponent.

2nd place is just first loser

Like Cras's bbq sauce.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 16:25 
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This year it's fucking on

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 17:02 
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Cras wrote:
This year it's fucking on a burger

FEEX

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 20:43 
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Oh oh oh I "invented" a fantastic bbq sauce. Can we do a sauce competition?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 20:45 
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Jem wrote:
Oh oh oh I "invented" a fantastic bbq sauce. Can we do a sauce competition?

No, Craster gets a three-year strop on when he doesn't win.

Do bring some, though!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 20:56 
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I will, if I remember :D

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 21:07 
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Problem is, we'll be rather relying on immigration due to an aging population with a rather low birthrate. So cutting it off... not really the greatest idea.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 21:25 
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Or we could just let all the old people die from lack of support like nature intended.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:51 
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Husband has sent off his postal vote

Also, betting is so not NL


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:56 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Problem is, we'll be rather relying on immigration due to an aging population with a rather low birthrate. So cutting it off... not really the greatest idea.


Well if people keep on having them cut off no wonder the birth rate is low.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:56 
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MrChris wrote:
Or we could just let all the old people die from lack of support like nature intended.


Pushed out into the Atlantic in a canoe with a sandwich and a flask of tea?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:24 
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Mimi wrote:
MrChris wrote:
Or we could just let all the old people die from lack of support like nature intended.


Pushed out into the Atlantic in a canoe with a sandwich and a flask of tea?

A canteen of water and a service revolver.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:14 
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Gogmagog

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Mr Dave wrote:
Problem is, we'll be rather relying on immigration due to an aging population with a rather low birthrate. So cutting it off... not really the greatest idea.


If it's "need workers to fund pensions, staff services and pay taxes", then you're going to only want those that are a net gain to the treasury or those that are skilled in the areas you need to offset their net negative impact. To do this, you'd probably stick a high bar on salaries for those not native workers to remain or on their spouses and have some kind of system to ensure you fill up the roles you are lacking in without over populating tje roles that aren't needed. Which isn't a million miles from where we now are.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 13:21 
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Is "shake it all about" not an option?

I'm not a British (or EU) citizen, so it doesn't really affect me much either way apart from maybe my pension/tax, and even then predictions for in/out are uncertain from an long-term economic perspective. I'd go status quo, as when I get my British citizenship I'd like the freedom to travel and work within the EU without hassle.

It also makes me uneasy that the most visible "Out" supporters are unabashedly racist. Whilst not entirely representative, it does worry me that voting "Out" would quasi-validate those people and grant them a platform to spew further rubbish.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 16:47 
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Well, have voted.

I swear they try and put you off postal voting by providing the most foul tasting envelopes available.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 14:34 
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also there was supposed to be a window in the outer envelope but there wasnt :shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 21:52 
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I watched David Cameron on Sky News this evening. Faisil Islam gave him a hell of a grilling and Mr Cameron was getting increasingly incensed. Then the audience question bit with Kay Burley was as irritating as audience questions and Kay Burley tend to be but Cameron responded well. So watch the first half.

Sky are interviewing Michael Gove tomorrow, if that's your idea of a fun Friday night.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 22:59 
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I'm glad Michael Gove is a Tory, It'd be a shame for a decent human being to have a face that slappable.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:32 
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This is lovely: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur ... a-z-index/

An alphabetised list of bullshit British papers have published about the EU, rebutted by the EU.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:39 
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"Royal Navy, Christmas puddings" sounds like something I shouldn't google without safe-search.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:24 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
This is lovely: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur ... a-z-index/

An alphabetised list of bullshit British papers have published about the EU, rebutted by the EU.

Stealing this forever

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:40 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
This is lovely: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur ... a-z-index/

An alphabetised list of bullshit British papers have published about the EU, rebutted by the EU.

Stealing this forever

Still loads for me. You're not a very good thief.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:53 
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http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/curved-bananas/

Curved bananas, 4.4 out of 5 based on 7 ratings

Where's Chinny when you need him?
Clearly the incorrect scale, we should take this up with the EU!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 13:18 
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In Shropshire visiting my folks. OUT signs everywhere. My Dad and Stepmother (staunch Tories) think that it'll be a landslide for the OUT vote.

I think it will be in places like this, but heavily the other way in cities. It does have me worried though!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 13:21 
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Same in Stafford and uttoxeter, admittedly only ten miles away. Northampton/Towcester however was more slanted towards remain.

Bromley is out, 4 miles south more so. Bromley prides itself on not really being London though.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 14:29 
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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 15:53 
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This isn't earth-shakingly insightful but is a nice summary of how I feel about the whole thing:

https://thenib.com/the-uk-might-leave-t ... .4v3uy6x8f


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:09 
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Cras wrote:
Image

Far be it for me to suggest a cull, but we have a clear opportunity here.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:11 
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Isn't that lovely?

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Cras wrote:
Image


I saw that, but where do the 40-49 year olds sit?

I did like the fact that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to want to stay in the EU.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:17 
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Woop! I am safe either way! Over 29 but under 50!

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:25 
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Malc wrote:
I did like the fact that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to want to stay in the EU.

That could also be because you're (on the whole) richer if you're ABC1. I notice they didn't include annual wages in their breaks.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:27 
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Isn't that lovely?

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I was looking at the GCSE/A-Level/Graduate rows.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:42 
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That's interesting, not all UKIP supporters want us to leave the EU....
You do have to wonder if they understood what they are signing up for?


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 18:58 
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Don't forget the Home Counties being well behind UKIP because they'd black HS2

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 19:14 
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Malc wrote:
I saw that, but where do the 40-49 year olds sit?
It's illustrative, not exhaustive. It doesn't list all the daily newspapers either.

Quote:
I did like the fact that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to want to stay in the EU.
More educated people (like me) are more likely to work in positions where they see the benefits of open immigration (like my office, which recruits across Europe.) Less educated people are being squeezed by stagnant wage growth in the middle and lower classes, which is easily blamed on a perception of reduced opportunities caused by immigration of hard-working unskilled workers eg. Polish builders.

Edit - the Economist had a good write-up of this line of thinking:

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/2 ... two-cities

Quote:
BEING a Eurosceptic in a university city is a lonely business. In the drizzle outside the Cambridge Union a student in a roll-neck is trying to hand anti-EU leaflets to the cliques hurrying past. Most ignore him. One, having taken a folded piece of card, glances at it and sighs “nah”, shoving it back into the campaigner’s hand. Inside, in the neo-Gothic chamber, pro-EU luminaries ply their arguments to cheers. When Richard Tice, an anti-EU campaigner, delivers his speech students bob up and down, machine-gunning him rebarbative questions. Did regulation not exist before Britain joined the union? Why do so many firms support membership? If Britain doesn’t control its borders why do foreign students struggle to get visas? When Mr Tice quotes “the highly respected economist, Tim Congdon” (a notorious Eurosceptic) the chamber resounds to laughter and sarcastic applause.

This attitude is not limited to Cambridge’s student population. A recent debate among residents produced an even more overwhelming pro-EU vote: about 300 to six, reports Julian Huppert, a former local MP. The city’s exceptionalism is borne out by a ranking, produced by Chris Hanretty and other political scientists using polling and demographic data, of parliamentary seats in England, Scotland and Wales by their level of Euroscepticism. Cambridge came 619th of 632 with an estimated Out vote of merely 27%. Compare that with Peterborough, a similarly sized city at the other end of Cambridgeshire. At a public debate there locals voted decisively in favour of Brexit. “I asked rhetorically what the audience would put at risk to leave the EU,” recalls Mr Huppert. “They shouted back: ‘Everything’.” Sure enough, it came 49th on the ranking, with a projected 62% voting Out.

Which is curious and especially relevant today (as The Economist went to press David Cameron was in Brussels, hoping to finalise his EU renegotiation ahead of an in-out referendum). Cambridge and Peterborough are in the same part of the country. Both are about an hour by train from cosmopolitan London, are growing fast, have younger-than-average populations and mostly white-collar workforces. Both benefit from EU funds. And according to the census in 2011 they have a near-identical share of residents born in other EU countries—around one in ten. Yet one is a bastion of Europhilia, the other of Euroscepticism.

The walk outwards from both cities’ centres adumbrates the difference. In Cambridge the route cuts through Victorian terraces housing academics, floor-to-ceiling bookshelves glimpsed through bay windows. It skirts the city’s airport, where a near-daily flight from Gothenburg ferries in AstraZeneca executives. And it ends in a belt of commercial labs and high-tech business parks. In Peterborough, the stroll takes in new middle-class suburbs serving the city’s booming retail and logistics industries, streets where betting shops, pubs and hair salons mingle with Polish delis and supermarkets and finally vegetable fields (often worked by eastern European migrants) stretching out into the flat, big-skied fenland. Thus just as Cambridge bears the hallmarks of an economy in which one in two has gone to university, Peterborough is visibly a city of school-leavers.

When it comes to the EU, this difference is everything. Education levels are “an extremely strong predictor” of an individual’s views on the subject, stresses Robert Ford, an expert on public opinion: the more qualifications someone has, the more pro-European he or she is likely to be.

According to polls by YouGov, those educated only to 16 oppose EU membership by 57% to 43%, but among graduates it is 38% to 62%. When education is controlled for, other factors affecting an individual’s views on Europe—like income, choice of newspaper and even age—diminish.

What is it about those five years of study between 16 and 21? The answer has two parts. First, the self-interested one. “Having a degree is increasingly a prerequisite of getting on in life,” observes Mr Ford, adding: “Both sides are aware that there is a drawbridge called university and that those who don’t get across it are disadvantaged.” In other words, the mighty churn of global economic integration, of which the EU is both cause and symptom, disproportionately benefits the well educated and can leave those in unskilled jobs feeling left behind.

The second, cultural driver mostly concerns immigration. Whereas many in Cambridge see incomers as highly educated Germans and Swedes bringing their expertise to research projects, startups and product-development meetings, in Peterborough they are Lithuanian potato-pickers who, if not competing with locals for unskilled work, are at least nipping at their heels. Anyone who expresses “intense concern” about immigration is 15 times more likely to back Brexit, notes Matthew Goodwin, a political scientist. This spills into questions of identity. People without higher education are more likely to call themselves English than British; the former label—much stronger in Peterborough than Cambridge—functions as a badge of perceived exclusion.

Two-nation Britain

In the long term, this bodes well for pro-Europeans. University attendance has exploded, which suggests that Britain will become more internationalist and comfortable with EU co-operation. Yet in the meantime it seems the country will be increasingly polarised: liberal, Cambridge-like places on the one side; nationalist, Peterborough-like ones on the other and an ever-shrinking middle ground between the two, as the population bifurcates into those whose skills make them globally competitive and those who must compete with robots and the mass workforces of the emerging economies. Democracy—especially in a system as centralised and majoritarian as that of Britain—assumes some common premises and experiences, a foundation that thanks to the great educational-cultural divide is now at risk. Eventually Britain will look more like Cambridge than it does today. But until then decades of division and mutual alienation await.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 19:20 
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Malc wrote:
I was looking at the GCSE/A-Level/Graduate rows.

That still affects earnings though, broadly.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 19:23 
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Grim... wrote:
Malc wrote:
I was looking at the GCSE/A-Level/Graduate rows.

That still affects earnings though, broadly.


It does, but at the same time someone who's gone to a big city to study a degree is much more likely to have done a lot more mingling with foreign students than someone who's stayed in their home town all their life, so I think there's a multitude of direct factors there.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:29 
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Are there any positions on the exit side that you either agree with or can appreciate are serious reasons for leaving (but outweighed by other concerns)?


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You are using the 'Ted' forum. Bill doesn't really exist any more. Bogus!
Want to help out with the hosting / advertising costs? That's very nice of you.
Are you on a mobile phone? Try http://beex.co.uk/m/
RIP, Owen. RIP, MrC. RIP, Dimmers.

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