Be Excellent To Each Other

Bit of change of mind on this now... It is not really in our (contentinental) interest to keep someone about who doesn't want to.. So i really hope it gets at least a clear result, so that it won't come back.. And if britain want to leave i hope You/britain realize it won't be really a nice clean exit as some seem to be suggesting.. britain still will have obligations around refugees, and still will have to fit many requirements to enter the free market.. (see the article floating around about norway...)

But i do hope an think most people here realize that sticking to some old fashioned nationalism and island-patriotism isn't really in the best interest of anybody, and most of the 'idiot-brussels-bureaucrat' stories are spins by either politicians who forgot they themselves agreed with something, or politicians who don't care to look up why a standardization measure was proposed in the first place, or the press looking for a cheap shot...

Nationalism isn't that old fashioned in Britain, actually. Especially in England. It's a relatively new phenomenon

Aye. Most of the rise of English nationalism has been in response to the growth of Scottish, Welsh, and Cornish identity over the last 30 years.

Taking the nationalism point, whilst there are sections of Eurosceptism who approach it from a pretty simple Britain/England contra mundum approach, it's perfectly reasonable to be against the EU without being nationalistic about it. I often cringe when I hear people equating the EU with Europe. One is a political entity, the other is a geographical one.

Nice

Hahaha Cornwall. Bless

I think I might use this thread to brighten up a seemingly-endless campaign* by sometimes posting unconvincing arguments from both sides, such as this gem from today's 'Oxford Mail':



*TheVision can keep us updated on how many days we've got left

Successful immigrant family might or might not have view on Europe.

nice infographic

I reckon you're preaching to the choir there, bud.

A typical Eurosceptic response might be 'that's great, but you don't need the trappings of statehood or political union to get those nice things'.

Speaking of holidays, I realised that I'd never been to Paris so booked a long weekend in June. Only dawned on me later that I'll be heading out the day after the vote.

I am very tempted to day trip Paris for the end of the racing.

Someone's just pointed out to me that there might also be the minor issue of Euro 2016 going on at that time too.

I forgot to book my hotel extra night. So I roll in on Saturday afternoon, and Eurostar home *at some point* on Sunday. Such point may be after the racing finishes but I have no certainty on that.

Interesting piece on Arstechnica about lobbying in Brussels. Not that Whitehall or Westminster can take the moral high ground on this.

Got my first bit of referendum publicity through the letterbox today: a colourful flyer from the remain side promising 'more jobs, lower prices' for staying in and 'a leap in the dark' if we left. Three months to go...

Yes, I saw that. I am sure I broadly agree with what they are saying, but the leaflet itself seemed...babyish?

Three points that stood out for me:

- the only reference to immigration was the ability of young people to travel, work, and study abroad
- it was all about economics, with no mention of the idea of the EU as a political project we might want to get on board with
- the slogan 'Britain Stronger in Europe' is already starting to irritate.

I'll be interested in the next batch of flyers, especially from the other side. I rather like getting political ephemera. Need to work on some annoying questions for any unwitting canvasser who might drop round.

Oh dear, I think Polly Toynbee's outrage in this article is a little misplaced.



Hypocritical, yes. But surely what should be getting her angry is why wealthy landowners benefit from the CAP and whether any reform is possible whilst we remain in the EU, rather than a 'aren't the Mail and Murdoch evil' rant?

more punishment measures
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-euro ... -a-brexit/

As an immigrant working in a startup predominantly staffed by EU foreigners, pls stay in the EU kkthxbai.

Romanista, are you voting today?

I am.

Also Steve has received his postal vote thingy so he can vote on the Brexit

So it seems that the 'Nee' side won, but only just, on a turnout that's just above the 'we don't have to listen to this' level.

Probably means it's going to be destined to the pub quiz of history but might be another notch in the Dutch Eurosceptic log of grievances. But I don't know much about Dutch politics.

Why did the Nederlands get to vote on this as a referendum?

From what I understand, they have a public petition law whereby if a certain number of signatures is reached, an advisory referendum has to be held on the issue.

...the result however is not binding...but the Govt has to 'respond' to it (somehow). I'm sure our Dutch correspondents provide more light on this.

I guess this calls for your resident dutch correspondent...

man I'm feeling like a complete chagrin about this..


1) We got a referendum bill last year, making it possible to organise a referendum about a law after 400000 signatures we're collected
2) we have a right-wing blog called 'geen stijl' (No Style) which was almost cut by its owner because it didn't make anymoney, (even thoguh it is well read, it allways acts like a'school bully'.
3) A number of anti-eu activist teamed up with them.. They saw an opportunity to slowly move nl out of the EU, Geen stiojl one to gain attention...
4) they campaigned for the signatures using their blog, that went fast.. claiming it was about The EU, (and immkigration, and etc..)
5) Formally the law to ratify the Ukraine-association was being subject to a referendum, because it was a law, eventhough we already signed and ratified the treaty in both chambers.. and nobody when drawing up the law thought about that scenario..
6) The peope who took the initiative atmitted last week they didn't care about the association treaty at all... they had 'not even read it'

And so it happened yesterday.. Most of 'my friends didn't want to vote because they didn't want to legitimate this referendum (or referenda at all).. not because they didn't care..

I held out until 19.45PM, when it looked like the threshold would be met, and went out to vote, as apparantly did quite a few people.. Later that evening it seemed it was close anyway.. so i really feel bad now about voting, and thus helping to legimate a referendum which is really a misuse of the instrument and the law...

And so we wake up with a refenduym with a clear no, and just above the threshold.. And nobody really knowing wha tit means...because
1) It is the first time the law is used after being passed last year..
2) It is not binding
3) how do you cancel a law to ratify, when the treaty is more than bilateral and already partly into effect
4) how do you appreciate the voice of the many people who didn't went on principle...
5) what does this mean for the future of the referendum law, and our relationship with the EU....

Wow, that sounds like a mess!

excellent summary romanista
amen to all of that, except I went to vote at 18.45
its so depressing that a few arseholes manage to rile a whole lot of idiots to waste so many peoples time and also a bucket load of money, arg!

Some unbiased speculation from an immigration specialist within a workplace law firm. Potential Brexit implications for EU workers in the UK: http://www.doyleclayton.co.uk/blog/post ... -of-brexit

Looks at the following questions:

I've pretty much come to accept I've only got a limited amount of time with my girlfriend left. I can't imagine the UK public, nationalistic as it is, will vote for us to stay in the EU, sadly.

I can't imagine the UK public will vote for us to leave, status quo rules all.

that appears to be real how can that possibly be real

Low turnout I reckon. But a comfortable win for the Quo

If you want a win-win then put all your money on voting to leave.

You can probably get at least 2/1 odds on it.

All the polls have consistently pointed towards staying. Unless something dramatic happens I think you'll be fine.

Turnout is what worries me, I reckon the leave voters might be more motivated as a group than the ones who just want everything to stay the same. I'm sure the polls have adjusted for this, though.

You'd have thought the same over the voting change though (FPTP vs AV).

Brexit won't happen, and never will happen, for precisely the same reasons as Scottish independence not ever happening: people have too much to lose, what with their jobs, mortgages, pensions and all the rest.

I mean, it's one thing for rabid, frothing europhobes to get all-in-a-lather on fucking Twitter (just as per their 'cybernat' Scottish counterparts); but for your normal, average, everyday guy and gal with a job, kids to bring up, having to earn a living and stuff (and with precious little time for the whole, sorry troll-fest), they just don't want the arse to fall out of their world, thanks. So trust me on this. It's not happening.

I hope you're right Cavey, but the difference is that the Scots media doesn't have a history of saturating the population with the idea that the UK is the root of all their ills. Or at least not quite to the same extent of the drip dip drip of straight bananas and rapists let free cos of EU human rights bollocks that the UK media pumps out day after day. And the trump card for the public consciousness here is immigration.

The Scottish independence vote was 45-55. That's hardly a landslide.

Quite.

No Trump cards please

Cavey sounds like kinnock in 92. We're alright.

Nah. The vote was won by 11 clear points which, if compared to an old school two horse race general election, would be a landslide. Don't forget, too, that this emphatic victory was as against a sitting Tory government and the worst austerity the country had seen for generations: perfect, nutritious agar and fertile ground indeed for the grievance monkeys, liars, misleaders, propagandists and fantasists of the pro independence side. They still lost, and by a fecking mile too.

Oh man. That is below the belt, I'll not be compared to the Welsh Windbag, thanks.

Actually, I have never seen them in the same room...