Be Excellent To Each Other

Let's say you knew a person who, 10 years ago moved into a Housing Association property with their mum after the mum's divorce, and was entirely entitled to it at the time.

Let's also say the mum got remarried 6 years later, and moved out. Meanwhile the remaining child, now 29, continues to live in the Housing Association house (which is a 3-bed, semi-detatched, very nice place) for roughly £340 in rent per month.

And this 29 year old earns a salary of £24-25k a year, and hasn't informed the Housing Association of any change of circumstances despite the fact they know damn well that they don't deserve this place.

Let's ALSO say that you know that, due to idiotic inability to control spending, the 29 year old has racked up some £15-20k of credit card debt from spurious purchases, and if they had to move out of the cheap house they're not entitled to, it might squeeze their budget in trying to make the repayments.

Knowing as you do that there's a social housing problem in the country, and that this person is entirely not entitled to the 3 bed house that they live in alone... do you shop them in?

Asking for a friend, obviously.

No, keep entirely out of it, and let sleeping dogs lie.

While I have done this for the last 18 months and can continue to do so, can you provide some justification as to why? Is there no social responsibility to not let people get away with things like this?

Is this Housing Association property in an in-demand area? Or surrounded with empty properties?

Unless they had personally been a cunt to me and it was revenge, or I was next on the housing list and needed the house, I'd leave it alone.
He's already fucked if he has that much debt on that wage, why make his life worse for no personal benefit?

Why should this be a factor?

If it isn't hurting anyone... let them essentially screw over the system? I can't possibly know what the demand is like personally, but I can only assume that there is somebody else more worthy, that isn't earning £24k/year, or possibly has a family that needs a family-sized house.

Shop em

My innate sense of social justice would say report them, but I'd do so with a heavy heart.

sounds like you want to screw em over

Have you told them that you think they're taking the piss?

I'd shop em!

Option 1)

Tell on them, hardship follows, your sense of justice gets better, the needs of the many, etc. However, hassle for you as it WILL come back and bite.

Option 2)

Do nothing, the world is an unjust place and sometimes the bad guys win. it's no real big shakes,

Option 3)

Get paid £400 a month to NOT tell the authorities. Everyone's a winner.

You're right, sometimes the bad guys win but if we had more good guys then they'd be less chance of them winning.

I'm like a superhero. I can't turn a blind eye to injustice.

I'd go for Option 2, personally.
Also let he who has never sinned cast the first stone etc.? (Not directed at EBG but general sentiment).

Surely everyone does stuff that's wrong on some level or other. Me? I pay my bills, but have been known to speed/jump late amber lights etc. and used to use my mobile phone when driving on occasion. For others, they might let their dog crap on the pavement, not recycle their rubbish, skip paying road tax, occasionally use illicit, recreational substances, buy knockoff fags/DVDs/music from some bloke at the pub, pirate films/games or whatever. Crikey, the list goes on, surely most people are "guilty" of *something*, yes?

I just find the whole prospect of shopping someone for "social justice" a tad Orwellian, if I'm honest.

Clearly, I am concerned about the potential personal consequences for them, otherwise I wouldn't ask.

However they are so aware of their unjust situation, they know they're not entitled, and they're content to capitalise on it for personal gain. It's fraud, plain and simple, and being aware of it makes me feel culpable or at least partially responsible for allowing it to continue.

People complain about the unjust world, and moan that 'someone' should do something to set things right. Governments bang on about a fairer society, but that doesn't that ultimately start with the individual tackling that themselves, wherever they find it?

If we believe in justice, we don't fear karma. If I've ever done anything worthy of a comeuppance, then surely it should visit me regardless of the 'sins' of others?

This is the bit that I would get stuck over and there is the question of just *how* much of what you put can you be 100% sure of.

If it really is the way you've described I would feel guilty keeping quiet about it but would want to 'know' that what you posted is actually correct.

I'm 100% certain on all aspects.

Also, your friend has run up that much debt even after having a cheap house and well paid job? Nah... They're taking the piss!

£340 a month rent would leave about £1,100 a month on that money. £20k over 4 years is £5k a year, which is £100 a month overspend. That's a lot of Tenants.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this isn't an accurate description of EBJs relationship with the person in question.

£100 a week you mean. and its not consumables presumably, but capital purchases on a credit card = stupid.

Well indeed, I haven't spoken to them for over a year, not least because of my annoyance at the above situation.

Knowing EBG, this is probably his brother or something.

Or is it ?

Oh yes? What makes you say that?

Yeah.

Or purchases using cash until the overdraft runs out, then use the credit cards until payday pays the overdraft back and then use cash until the overdraft runs out and then use cards and then you're using cards all the time.

Or, maybe he's just had 4 fucking awesome holidays

You're not exactly well known for your compassion and warmth towards humankind.

True, although I can be individually sensitive to people I know. It's the other 7-billion I'm less bothered with.

Fewer botheredses

You really must get out more.

The opposite is exactly true.

IMO shop em, one of my cousins was in a similar situation a few years back (he was fraudulently in a housing association property). His own father gave him 2 months to fess up and deal with the issue himself, he didn't so my uncle called it in.

No one in our society is happy at rising tax's and council tax, your 'friend' is in work and able to pay his own way, he is just pissing on the rest of the tax paying public. His credit card debts don't come into the equation imo.

Social Housing and the other safety nets our country provide are aimed for helping people get back on their own feet. People who take more than they need from this system are in effect stealing from people who really do need it, as regardless of Tax's the pot only has so much in it.

This gens with my thinking very closely.

Amazingly well put Slightly Green.

Thanks, I do have my moments of lucidity

If the system is broken, fix the system. Let's not create a society where everyone is spying on and reporting each other, please? Nothing good can come of that.

SHOP 'EM.

Except for the fixing of the system?

How so?

It might make the housing association realise they need to do more than send out a letter in the post asking you to confirm your situation is unchanged. An in-person follow-up or inspection might give hint that only one person lives there...

But if you aren't compassionately bothered about the other seven billion or so then where does your sense of social compassion and the wish to do the right thing for the more needing come from? It's a genuine question as if you really don't give a fig about 'people' in the general sense then it would seem like the idea of shopping this person is less to do the 'right' thing and more to see this person suffer or hurt in some way, which isn't the right reason to do it and I would suggest stepping away. And this person will suffer, especially hard considering their debts. You'll just be pushing the first domino, so only do it if you are able to be aware of that person suffering.

If your disregard for people is more hyperbole really, then it will depend on the strength of your true social and moral conscience. What this person is doing is undoubtably wrong, and it's something that would mightily pee me off it it was someone that I knew. But I would (and have in a similar situation) told the person my feelings, told them that it would all come crashing down in a shower of poo if they don't do the better thing and then walked away. It was an acquaintance more than a friend, which made it easier.

I think that is a fantastic way of dealing with it - give a timescale to get him sorted or threat shopping him. It's probably better coming from someone closer in that it is more of a threat and with a wish for the uncle to actually see his son have a better life, but must also have hurt to go through with it. Tough love.

If someone threatened to shop me or actually went ahead and did it, I would never talk to them again.

There's a basic misunderstanding there Mimi. Quite simply, with 7 billion people in the world I can't give a stuff about them all individually. I cannot right the wrongs of everybody, only those that I know. I uphold the belief in a (culturally-subjective) 'moral' thing to do in a given situation, but necessarily I can only apply it to situations where I know the person.

There is no personal wrong against me which I would want to exact 'revenge' as you put it, although again, even if there was, it wouldn't negate the fact that the behaviour that I'm reporting is legitimately fraudulent.

Yes, I would opt for the tough love approach, not least because they could then declare a change in circumstances which would right the imbalance as far as the Housing Association is concerned. To report them directly might actually lead to a criminal prosecution for the fraud(?), which might also risk their job, and so on. That would be quite harsh, but again, given their situation is deliberate and not accidental, wouldn't that be a reasonable justice also? The fact the outcome is unpleasant for the person is merely a culmination of the wrong things that they have done to lead to it, so surely it would be justified?

Here's another question: What if you try to contact the person to discuss it, but they completely ignore you?

Call me a softarse; you'd be entirely right. For me, though, I just cannot conceive of actually going out of my way to dob a fellow human being right in it, over some sense of "social justice"? Let alone someone whom I knew personally, and, reading between the lines, hasn't exactly been dealt a fantastic hand in life.

I mean, really, so bloody what if they've got cheap housing that they were originally entitled to but aren't now? You're going to entirely unilaterally ruin him/her over this? Not exactly a bank heist is it - let the bloody Housing Association do their due diligence or whatever!

More generally, where does this sentiment end? If I poked around long and hard enough into the affairs of people who I know, I bet I'd unearth all sorts of petty misdemeanors and suchlike; should I be being "socially responsible" and dobbing all of them in it too? Bloody hell, I really wouldn't want to know people like that. It's also none of my business!

There's a difference between a social justice vigilante Cavey, and feeling a moral/social imperative to do something about it if you become aware of it naturally.

The problem of checking up on these things is unlikely to be mere laziness - I'm sure there's quite a tight cost/reward metric that dictates that they can't afford to manually check up on all their tenants at regular intervals unless they have a reason to.

I say again, where does the improvement in society come if not from individuals doing a bit where they can?

On the flipside, imagine that there exists a needy family in temporary accommodation that's struggling along because there are no family houses available in the area. Really visualise this theoretical family in your head - they're real people with real life outcomes too. A house they could live in is currently occupied by someone who has made poor life choices but otherwise earns a decent wage and could afford to live in the private rental sector. Is this fair?

Where we differ, EBG, is that I don't believe any "improvement to society" would/will ever arise as a result of individuals taking it upon themselves to closely observe the conduct of their fellow citizens and voluntarily report them to the relevant authorities (or indeed, a private corporation in this case).

I also don't buy your argument that the poor Housing Association cannot be in any blamed or expected to do their job properly, or at all, and/or pleading their own poverty.

Yes of course there is injustice for your theoretical family who are even more needing of this accommodation, but speaking for myself only I do not think the ends (ruination of your acquaintance) justify the means, but that's just me.

I don't even think I could live with the knowledge that I had personally and entirely avoidably brought about the ruination of someone else, under these (to my mind petty) circumstances. Like I say, though, I am a softarse.

That is you making your own choice, that's fine. But in this scenario you are still the one in the wrong for fraudulently stealing from the state, why do you feel that people you know should become complicit in your crime and not help enforce the laws of our country. If you disagree with the law that's another matter. Personally I don't think it is solely down to the boys (and girls) in blue, it is all of us who live and work here. There is no violence in the crime and any sentence in a court (if it even went that far) would reflect that, would you still not report a 'friend' that you knew was breaking and entering or even mugging people? Its just the thin end of the wedge, I know there are shades of grey etc... but theft is theft.

My cousin did stop talking to his dad for a good long while after. But he is the 'black sheep' of the family, when younger he went to work with his dad, then went and collected money his dad was owed by a customer and vanished for 2 months, my uncle was very embarrassed when he went to the customers house to ask for his money the week after (he had no idea my cousin had grabbed the cash). He also stole cash from my grandmothers house along with various other nefarious deeds, the guy is a dick. The main reason he spoke to his dad again was due to my uncle being diagnosed with cancer, he passed on 2 weeks ago

With regards to peoples views that the Housing Associations should be more diligent and do house visits etc... are you willing to pay more tax to cover the extra costs this will incur? They are working on a very stretched budget as it is. In February 2013 there were 3.8 million people in social housing in the UK, that's ALOT of people to do house calls on