Be Excellent To Each Other

Recently, a good friend who I've known for ten years this year, fell out with me. It was all over a couple of tweets that he sent. I've just previewed this post and it's huge so I'm going to spoiler some of it for those that are nosey and want to read it (Grim...)



As you all know I became a father last year and my wife has another baby on the way. My friend (who we’ll call Kip..) and his wife have never wanted kids and would rather have a dog. That’s cool, their decision and all that but he’s sometimes a little bit extreme in his views. The tweet should tell you that… the tweet that went out to his 16 protected followers by the way.
I took offence at this message and decided to tell him via text the following morning. Here is what I said.

I took offence at the tweet because he only has 16 followers. 8 of them are the four friends and wives. The rest are made up of 5 members of his band. His wife, nephew and a chicken. If he had a wider following then I might have understood it as it could have been aimed at anyone but because the circle of followers is so small, the things he puts on there are clearly aimed at a very specific audience.
In response to my text, I got this...

Then this..

And before I could respond, this..

I was quite surprised at this. If he had just said “Sorry, I’ll delete it” then I would have forgot about it. So I replied with this.


He’s a massive fan of the PS3 by the way and he regularly tweeted about Nintendo being evil and Microsoft waving the white flag in the face of the PS4. It was proper playground stuff that I never rose to. Anyway, the texts continued.. and I shall spoiler the rest along with a Whatsapp conversation because it goes on and on and on...


There’s a lot to read up there so feel free to skim through it but what would you do in my situation? You can probably tell that he’s a funny bugger and very opinionated and to be honest, it’s sometimes awkward being his friend. I've often found myself making excuses for him and you shouldn't have to do that with friends should you? There's been several instances recently of him rage quitting Halo 4, not wanting to go to gigs that we've all been looking forward to for ages and not attending a Retro Video Games show in town AFTER he bought a ticket.

But then again, we have been friends for ten years now and it’s a lot to throw away over a silly tweet which shouldn't have been sent. I do wonder how I can sit next to him from here on in though, knowing that he thinks my wife is an idiot and has called me a twat (amongst other things). My wife isn't very pleased with him at all and has made it clear that he's not welcome in our house and my other friends are on my side, but are still friends with him so aren't rocking the boat.

What do you think? Yes.. you. Perhaps you'd like to tell me in the handy poll I've put together?

Ooh, get him to sign up here...

I actually put that as one of the poll choices, but then took it out. We've had enough of these "shouty" types as it is.

A) He does indeed belong here

B) I'm gobsmacked, and I trust you not to misrepresent things

C) I can't help you here, as I can't reference 10 years of your life. Although 15 or so years ago I fell out with my then best friend over something similarly small and similarly overblown. No such instant communication existed so it died, there and then on Stafford high street. But on reflection it was a symptom of a relationship that had already come to an end.

Actually, that sounded a little cuntish, sorry, it seemed funnier in my head....

I can see why you didn't like the tweet (I've got a 6 month old kid), it's pretty harsh. Can't tell if it was meant to be funny or antagonistic.

I remember when I was younger saying something really quite nasty and offensive trying to be funny and a friend pulled me up on it. It was the right thing to do and I respected him for doing it - a friendship sometimes has to be like that. Not everyone can take criticism though so

I've drifted away from some good friends, no big fall-outs or anything. People do change over time though, some recognise and accept this of others (and themselves) and stay friends, some don't and then fall or lash out.

No further evidence m'lud.

No need to apologise! I thought it was funny as it was exactly what I was thinking when reading his messages back through.

What is a 'Mummy Morning'? I guess it's a regular meetup of new parents at local large cafe or library or something? Is it something you organise yourself?

Not at all. It's just a gathering of mums at a local shopping centre. Myleene Klass went to one recently and while it must be nice to get a load of new moms together, me and the wife find them a bit twee.

Voted forgive and forget - to me, that tweet really isn't worth getting worked up over - it was a crass comment by his own admission, but if it wasn't aimed at you then why should you care?

A small twitter following isn't indication that he was aiming it at a specific group of people - I'm reasonably sure that nobody reads my blog, but I still post on it simply because it's there and I enjoy it.

There's millions of other twitterers out there that post things far more offensive than that, so to lose a 10 year friendship over something so silly seems just as idiotic as his original tweet was (arguably!)

Possibly a bad analogy, but if I tweeted something like "Fucking students, standing around in large groups outside shops and getting in the fucking way. Move along, you bellends" (a thought I have on a nearly daily basis these days) and you'd recently started college, would you take offence to that?

Do you actually like the guy? If you've known him for ten years then I assume you haven't just been 'tolerating' him for that amount of time and as such you are really friends?

His responses come over to me as indicative of some sort of mental state that isn't entirely normal, and I don't mean that in a disparaging manner, insofar as who gets to decide what 'normal' is? But at the same time they don't seem to fall within the boundaries of 'expected responses'.

I've gone for 'other' on the poll, because I don't think there's a simple neat answer, especially given the fact you've taken the time to post about it in the first place, otherwise you'd have just made up your mind and acted!

I'm getting a kind of Aspie vibe from the text you've quoted, (or some other condition, the wild swings of emotion hint at bi-polar maybe), but I could be off the mark.

What I took from it, AE, was that he wanted to have a chat face to face to sort it out, as good long-standing friends should do, and was just getting frustrated at TheVision's apparent silence on the matter. I can well understand his anxiety on that score, and (personally) I don't see he did anything wrong, so I'd be pretty anxious to sort things out too if I thought I was going to lose a good friend over it all.

In that case, I think you overreacted in your tweet. If the events he directly refers to aren't associated with you, then he wasn't talking directly to you, about you or about your family. He could've been talking about charity canvassers, door-to-door window salesmen or drunk guys stumbling down the street in St. Patrick's Day's hats. It's just what he saw and what happened to annoy him on that particular day.

It's up to you to figure out what sort of guy your friend is, and whether or not you like him. If he's your friend, talk to him in person. Text on the internet doesn't cut it.

Myleene Klass? Where do I sign up immediately! I love Myleene. I love her so much. That does it, I'm getting a kid so I can go. Can I borrow yours? Anyone's? Right, I'm adopting tomorrow.

etc

Personally, I thought your text was a bit inflammatory: "I'm taking this personally" - without first asking what the tweet was about. The tweet had no context and, lets face it, it could be a comment on something that's happened to him that day, or read or whatever really.

What followed was some crazy shit. He obviously flew off the handle after your text and the messages that followed are verging on mentalist but it could've been nipped in the bud much earlier. It'd be disappointing if a few text messages ruined a long friendship. I'd suggest a face to face - arranged very soon - might sort it out and smooth it over (he might just explain what the tweet was about very simply). You obviously care about his friendship or this wouldn't have its own thread.

In fairness, I did think my original text was a bit harsh but his tweet got to me and it was said in the heat of the moment. My silence after this was because I was took back by his aggression.. Wanting people with kids to genuinely burn in hell is quite a harsh thing to say. Another friend has quite harsh views on dog owners but doesn't tweet about it for fear of offending people, especially Kip.

As for Bipolar/Asper.. Yeah, this thought had crossed my mind too but I wouldn't know what to look for or indeed, if these are traits of the condition. I think he's had some issues in the past but I don't know what. I just vaguely remember it being mentioned once.

That's a fair point for sure, but doesn't entirely explain his subsequent, for want of a better word, 'ranting'.

This is the problem with internet communication I suppose, personally speaking I'd have just picked up the phone long before it escalated to the level that it did - it's amazing how much a real human voice can change the timbre of a frenetic internet fallout.

And TBH I don't agree with the opinion that the original message is not a tweet that's 'aimed' at anyone, whenever I post some shit to Facebook I always think about how my friends on there might react to it - and I've made an active decision not to make a post and/or have edited the content of a post on the basis I think it may well upset someone who'll read it, on more than one occasion.

TheVision has already stated that this tweet was only going out to 16 protected followers, so there's really no excuse in that regard IMO, but at the same time that's where I'm coming from with my thought that maybe Kip just didn't think it through and/or didn't really see the potential for it to cause upset and/or offence.

Definitely, text-based communications are shit at giving context to what's being said, which is of course why the emoticon was created

I'm also reasonably sure that Kip doesn't genuinely want people to burn in hell - that just sounds like typical Internet-bluster to me. When stand-up comedians say "This genuinely happened to me" they don't mean it, after all.

A little surprised we haven't had this one yet:

People say stupid things that they don't mean or haven't remotely thought through from time to time, they have "off days", and as others have noted, text-only forms of communication really suck in these sorts of scenarios (as we here know only too well). That's not to say I in any way condone what the guy tweeted, but there again you've known and liked this guy 10 years - I assume from what you mention about 'console wars' and the like that he's outspoken and polemical anyway? So as ever, I guess context is very important; these things should never be taken at face value and/or in isolation.

Easy for me to say mate to be sure, but I'd go Option 1 here; just say 'balls to this, let's go out for a beer' or somesuch and the air will be cleared. My long suffering RL friends - some of whom I've known for 30 years - have had to put up with me shooting my mouth off when drunk etc. or whatever on occasion - thank goodness they're still around. You seem like a really good guy mate so I should think deep down, for all the wounded pride and nonsense (on his part), this guy is even more gutted than you are about it and probably feeling pretty shit about the whole episode.

Cavey

I feel similarly to Gazchap. Audience size aside, it doesn't mean that the tweet was aimed at you.

I think just about everyone on this forum has made more offensive posts/tweets about various groups or views, and often there will be someone we know in the board or among our followers that is either part of that group/view/activity. I think you've then got to wonder whether it is personal against a particular, or someone voicing their opinion. Twitter is like a sounding board for opinion, and that's where he sounded his. But it happened to be about something you seem to have recently taken part in (and not really enjoyed). In fact, it seems that you don't like Mummy Mornings, so you both agree on that (though he REALLY doesn't like them).

Either way, can see why you perhaps took it badly, but I think he may have been just voicing irritation at a general concept, which was taking personal.

When you wrote the timeline above, you left out Mrs TheVisions initial responses/replies, so it's difficult to see the run if things, but it may be that he felt you were 'ganging up' on him, and that you probably wouldn't have reacted so badly if MrsTheVision hadn't responded first. He may be wrong, but that seems to be what he thinks.

I think his subsequent messages all seem to show that he genuinely loves and misses you but that he feels that he has a right to his opinion. He states over and over again that it wasn't in regards to you, but I sense that you don't believe that. Is it something he was likely to have said a few years ago? From you saying that he's a bit funny and says stuff like that all the time it seems he might have. Maybe he just hasn't thought about adjusting his views (or airing them) in response to your own life changes, or hasn't felt that he needs to with someone he feels close to. Obviously this had been an error in his judgement, but he seems to be genuinely cut up that this has come between you.

If I missed him, and I wanted to save the friendship, I'd reply telling him that I cared about our friendship, and that I loved and missed him, but that really important and special changes had happened in my life and that I'd hope that as my best friend he could be part of the joy and discovery that these changes bought about, and understand that you need to enjoy this part of your life. I'd day that because it was something that is recently enjoyed, I saw his tweet as an attack on the life I was living, and if it wasn't that I was sorry that this had happened. I'd ask if he could be happy for us and allow us to enjoy the odd mummy morning/ cooing over our children.

But that would only be if I cared about our friendship. He's been losing sleep over it, so he does, and you've posted here, so it looks like you might, too.

Firstly, don't respond to any more messages on this particular topic. He'll only get more and more defensive if you continue pushing on this.

Then, just let things go quiet for a week or two. By this, I don't mean give him the silent treatment, but just go out or chat with others. Gives you and him a cooling off period. If the relationship isn't coming to its natural end, you'll resume normal service pretty soon. Or, if it has, that's it, and you can just say that you naturally drifted away.

The guy sounds like a hyper aggressive twat, sorry to say. Whether the original comments were aimed at you or not, no need for the rest of it, is there.

Dude makes a crass tweet.
You overreact
Dude gets defensive
You ignore him
Dude wonders wtf
You antagonise him
Dude wonders wtf
You ignore him
Dude gets aggressive
You continue to ignore him
Dude goes postal


He is an aggressive dick it seems, but you kicked this all off as far as I can tell and fuelled it by silence on something he obviously wanted to sort out (in his own special way...)

I'd say forgive and forget, but it may well be past that now

I felt the level of escalation was a bit scary - "Oh right that wasn't aimed at you but IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS TO THE LIMIT WITH OUR FUCKING FRIENDSHIP THEN BRING IT ON. DUDE."

I would remain friends with him but not meet him anywhere where there are sharp pointy objects.

Yeah, I should think fava beans and a nice bottle of Chianti should be off the menu...

yeah, I tend to agree, I think you over reacted, but he sounds like a nutter! What sort of c-unit says things like this (to a friend), " Secondly take the attitude out of your voice when you talk to me"?

Buy him some bleach.

I would agree with that, except for the fact he went all CUS afterwards.

Life's too short for these types of people. I've ended friendships for less.

Oh and then invite him back to the board, it's been too quiet.

I would echo the opinion of the other posters regarding the original tweet and your response.

But it's his comments about your wife that get to me. I may be massively overinterpreting things, but he seems to be jealous of your wife to the point of outright hating her. As I read his statements, he is actively trying to drive a wedge between you and her. That's just unforgivable in my book.

My two cents.

Also, this.

I'm with the majority here, I think.

His tweet was crass, but I'm sure he didn't mean it as any sort of personal attack. Your text to him was probably a bit OTT, and I might have had sympathies with him if he hasn't gone absolutely mental at that point?

I can't understand the mentality of someone who responds with threats about their friendship! It's like two people in a band who don't like each other, "You wanna break up the band? Well come at me bro, the bassist and singer are gonna come with me!".

Madness.

I'd go for forgive and forget, but it depends on how much you value the friendship. If you'd like to stay friends then it's worth the hassle of sorting it out.

He does seem crazy aggressive though.

I'm going to pretty much echo everyone else here: he was just blowing off steam about something he (understandably) thinks is pretty nauseating, albeit in totally over-the-top-fashion, and then both you and Mrs TheVision have decided to take it personally. You even agree with the spirit of his rantings about the Mummy Morning nonsense which makes it even weirder that you feel aggrieved by what he said.

That's pretty much the last point you did anything wrong though and after that it's all him. He's massively over-reacted, made some really pointed remarks about your wife, needlessly threatened to throw your friendship under a bus over it all and just generally made a complete twat of himself in the most bonkers way. I can only imagine all of this speaks to some issue he has with parenting/parenthood/parents which is why he was so over the top initially and why he's felt so betrayed (or whatever) to be pulled up about it all. Not that that's an excuse or anything of course.

So, um, yeah; if he pulls this kind of crap on a regular basis then fuck him. Regardless of what kicked it off having someone in your life that massively over-reacts like this and then has to be managed down off the ceiling is just too much stress and drama to have to deal with. If, however, he's not normally like this (to you anyway) and his friendship is generally a positive thing in your life then it's probably worth just admitting fault on both sides and moving on past it.

He sounds like an arsehole.

People say and do daft things but proper mates move on, it's the way he's responded that's fucked up.

I can see why you'd be offended by those tweets - I'd feel similarly, I think. My ex is obviously a single mum and she found things like those Mummy Mornings to be a bit of a help in the early stages with her and my daughter. But yeah, the vibe I actually got from the tweet was one of those "amusingly massive overreaction to minor grievance" style things, certainly not personal. So maybe your text to him was a bit OTT.

That said, the whole thing could've been sorted out then. His reaction to you just seems mental. Very, very aggressive. At this stage, I'd also be feeling pretty pissed about the quite misogynistic assumption that your wife put you up to this and that she's somehow pulling your strings and trying to destroy your friendship.

Ultimately dude, only you can decide what you want to do here - us Internet randoms can't help. If you feel the friendship has already run it's course, if you genuinely want no more to do with him, then let it die. Otherwise, text him, invite him down the pub tonight, have a bit of a chat about it and sort it out. I'm sure your wife is pissed off, but I'm equally sure she'll understand if you want to try and sort the friendship out.

As an aside... it can be tough hearing anti-children shit from friends when you have kids yourself.

I went to see Green Day at their recent show at the Emirates with my girlfriend, a guy whose been one of my very best friends for about 23 years and a mate of his from Uni who I'd not previously met. The friend of mine is not a pro-kid kind of person whatsoever and on the very few occasions that he's been in the same room as my daughter has pretty much entirely ignored her. At the same time, he's a nice guy, so would never say anything like that tweet.

All the same, I ended up having lunch with this group in a Nandos before the concert where there were families and kids running around and all that, so the other three started tutting and talking and joking about what a massive fucking pain in the arse children are, etc. And I did find it all a bit offensive.

I chose not to say anything, which did have my girlfriend constantly asking me why I was being so quiet, which I chose to respond to with "just a bit tired" rather than "you three are a massive bunch of cunts". Because, if I'm honest, before Zioette happened I'd probably have been joking along with them.

Anyway, Green Day were fucking amazing, so it's all forgotten now.

I'm a mummy. I didn't know what a mummy morning is, but I'm pretty sure I would fit his target.
But I would have probably shrugged off the original tweet as a silly thing to say he didn't mean litterally, might have thought 'twat' in my head but then have forgotten about it.

But like many others have said I really dislike the responses that followed, extremely agressive and ridiculously grandiose and quite nasty about you and your wife.
I understand the silence from you could have made him insecure but the emotion seems to be all over the place, no self reflection, no filtre, unstable.

I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I would choose myself, based on the tweet it would be option 1, based on the whole thing it's option 2. I'm not keen on explosive people in my life.
I don't quite get the whole "throw away 10 years", you have had 10 years of nice friendship (presumably) those aren't lost, that's just time enjoyed. The question is do you want to be friends with him today? Knowing him as you do now do you want to spend time with him etc? Does the positive and fun outweigh the negative?
I think talking face to face would be good either way.
Good luck with it all

One of the few poems I remember from secondary school was William Blake's 'A Poison Tree'. Whenever I get seriously pissed off with friends, I sometimes silently recite the first verse to myself.

Here's the complete poem:

I think you have to mentally draw a line between "people saying shit about kids" and "people saying shit about your kid". People can be annoyed by kids in general without them having any negative opinions about your own and if you're going to automatically mentally graft one on to the other then it's arguably you that's making a situation out of it.

Mind you, in the situation you describe, I'd be very careful to make the point that it was those annoying kids in that restaurant (or whatever) that were pissing me off and not actually all kids in general; precisely so you didn't think I was having a sideways swipe at your kid because why leave ambiguous room for offence to grow where none has to?

Children running around in restaurants should be given Red Bull and a free puppy by staff, and then kicked out.

Surely Nandos is only a restaurant in the same way that McDonalds is.

I thought Nandos was a creche - what were you doing having lunch there?

That doesn't mean they shouldn't behave, though.

Feex for not blaming the actual kids.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

This thread is very useful and it's great getting everyone's opinion.

Here's something else that happened which I forgot. When it all kicked off, Kip text Sonny or Jim (I can't remember who I named who) and said "You'd better come down on my side about all this"

Naturally, this upset Sonny (or Jim) as it's not about picking sides is it? Especially since he had nothing to do with the initial fallout.

But anyway.. It's interesting reading what everyone says. Is the friendship a hassle? Sometimes, yes. Is it worth being friends with him? Sometimes yes. I'm still going to have to do some thinking about it but I appreciate the advice so far.

To my mind this is the question you need to ask yourself. He's been a dick here no doubt but no one's perfect and, generally speaking, does being friends with him make you happy? Anything else can be sorted one way or another.

Yes, always. When is it not?

It's be a sad day the day I decide I've got too many friends I could do without one.

Well, Sonny and Jim don't like confrontation and even though they've said they're on my side, they haven't publically said they are.. so you're right. It IS about picking sides.