Be Excellent To Each Other

And, you know, party on. Dude.

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:08 
User avatar
ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 22391
You remember when games were fun. When you used to chat to people about them at school. When you shared experiences. When most games were a simple affair. When games were cheap to buy and had virtually no DRM, so you could swap copies of them with your mates. When games were made by a couple of people in their bedrooms. When games were a a new experience and innovated in their content. When games didn't have a multimillion budget and the expectations to match. When a lot of games were utter shit, but there were enough gems found to keep you wanting more. When games were produced at a frantic rate and new ones on the market pretty much every day.

Is the recent uprise in the indie game bringing all that back? It certainly feels like it to me, we are all going back to the start again...

The circle of life.
Hakuna Matata.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:17 
User avatar
Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 38654
It was a time of games lists typed in Wordsworth and printed on a 9-pin dot matrix printer.

A time of x-copy and "right click for trainer".

It was a time when pocket money day meant a new budget game and Christmas meant a big box full pricer.

It was ace.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:18 
Awesome
User avatar
Yes

Joined: 6th Apr, 2008
Posts: 12334
Net Yaroze.

_________________
Always proof read carefully in case you any words out


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:19 
User avatar

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 1883
Gesundheit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:22 

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 6093
I think I sadly missed out on some of the whole 'home computer' experience. We had a BBC Micro at home, but I didn't often get any games bought for me. It was quite nice on the odd occasion though - I always remember my dad taking me into Beebug in St Albans and buying me a copy of Empire Strikes Back and an analogue joystick for my birthday.

My most nostalgic memories are going to the Future Entertainment Show in Earl's Court each year and sampling all the incoming console delights. I'd save my pocket money well in advance to make damn sure I'd be able to buy at least one brand new console game whilst there - that was always part of the excitement. A day spent playing games that had just been released or were not even in the shops yet and knowing one of those new games would be coming home with me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:26 
User avatar
Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48899
Location: Cheshire
Zio wrote:
A day spent playing games that had just been released or were not even in the shops yet and knowing one of those new games would be coming home with me.


I used to think that about A level results day.

_________________
Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:29 
User avatar

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 1883
←L "GCS ZAXXON"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:35 
8-Bit Champion
User avatar
Two heads are better than one

Joined: 16th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14517
Zio wrote:
A day spent playing games that had just been released or were not even in the shops yet and knowing one of those new games would be coming home with me.


I had that but it was via buying pirated copies of the games at "The Barras"

I'd often have completed the game before the magazine reviews came out telling you if it was any good or not !


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:41 
User avatar

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 16636
Home computers and early consoles felt like they were always playing catch up, years behind the real things found in the arcades a half hour tram ride away in Blackpool. That's where my pocket money often went anyway.

I've not done an arcade trip in years, no idea what I'd find there now. I guess they still make new light gun games and stuff do they?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:43 
User avatar
ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 22391
Anyway, indie games, they are the modern day equivalent, aren't they? Is this a new golden age?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:46 
8-Bit Champion
User avatar
Two heads are better than one

Joined: 16th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14517
markg wrote:
I've not done an arcade trip in years, no idea what I'd find there now. I guess they still make new light gun games and stuff do they?


Yes they do , and occasionally a new pinball table as well (Stern are the only remaining pinball maker) - however I think youd just find lots of crappy crane games and fruit machines :-(

Trooper wrote:
Anyway, indie games, they are the modern day equivalent, aren't they? Is this a new golden age?


Indie games often can be and yes i do think we're in a golden age looking at what a single person sitting in their bedroom can come up with although Indie games are just one side of that i think some of the stuff we're seeing on mobiles is more akin to that early exciting time.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:56 
User avatar
Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14416
I played lots of games when I was a sprat: one a week; maybe for an hour, sometimes less. Who knew what was in the box? There were some memorable games for sure. There was however, more often, some unplayable garbage. My turnover of games was almost as high as the employees at my workplace. There were of course those games that remained memorable thanks to doubling the amount of fun with a friend. Player Two? Yes please! Most games were made more fun when your friends came around and you crammed around a small screen and duelled to the death or gave one another a leg up to battle through the next cave/level/boss.

Gaming was ace.

I've returned to some of these games through the power of emulation but the magic is lost. My friends no longer come round to play games. My spare time is taken up by, of all things, cleaning and shit. My most memorable games are now those games that have left a lasting impression on me like a favourite book or film. I couldn't spend 100+ hours playing Space Harrier. I couldn't spend 20 hours playing Horace Goes Skiing. I have spent over one hundred hours playing Dark Souls. It's incredible. Someone should make a sequel to that. Yeah, that'd be ace. Remember when you met something big and it smashed you to bits in seconds? I doubt I'll forget you Wolf with the sword in your gob. I've spent over 20 hours playing Resident Evil 4. I doubt I'll forget that in a hurry.

Gaming is ace.

Arcade gaming is ace of course but it comes and goes. I've lost count of the number of iPhone arcade games that have been deleted or left rotting on a long lost forgotten page. When the leaderboards stagnate you move on, others move on; you don't return.

But they'll always always always be room for another moment in time when I kissed the forehead of a comatosed lady, jumped onto a horse and went off to slay 12 giant beasties to bring her back to life.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:57 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 69713
Location: Your Mum
Trooper wrote:
Anyway, indie games, they are the modern day equivalent, aren't they?

No, I don't think so - they're the same as they always were. Indie games have existed for as long as "normal" games, and 99% of them are rubbish, but 1% are great. We just didn't call them that then - they were 'bedroom games' :hat: and then 'public domain' games.

Gaming now is far better than it's ever been - we're just fucking spoiled, is all.

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 15:58 

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 6093
It's not quite the same though, is it? I love Super Hexagon, but I think I'd feel pretty fucked off if I'd spent all my hard-saved pocket money on it, back in the day. Likewise, I can't imagine playing something like Hotline Miami back in a time when Mortal Kombat needed you to key in the title of a Genesis song (on the Sega Genesis version, no less, in case no one else saw what they did there) to get it to show blood.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 16:05 

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 6093
Talking of old games, as we were, I've had my Megadrive hooked up to the telly for the past fortnight. Mostly this was because I'd suddenly decided to buy an Everdrive cartridge, but myself and the missus have been having a great time with it, playing Golden Axe, Zombies Ate My Neighbours, Rock N' Roll Racing and Streets of Rage 2 together. It made us realise that virtually nothing comes out any more where more than one person can play simultaneously on the same console. It's a genuine shame.

I was going to start playing Chaos Engine with her too, but then The Last Of Us came out. Swings and roundabouts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 16:05 
User avatar
ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 22391
Grim... wrote:
Trooper wrote:
Anyway, indie games, they are the modern day equivalent, aren't they?

No, I don't think so - they're the same as they always were. Indie games have existed for as long as "normal" games, and 99% of them are rubbish, but 1% are great. We just didn't call them that then - they were 'bedroom games' :hat: and then 'public domain' games.


I don't think they are the same though, they are getting better and better, and have now hit the mainstream. Sure they have always been around, but not to this extent.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 16:16 
User avatar
Excellent Member

Joined: 25th Jul, 2010
Posts: 11128
Saturnalian wrote:
I've returned to some of these games through the power of emulation but it turns out they were actually quite shit.


Fixed. We remember these games fondly because of how they made us feel at the time but let's not be under any illusions about the quality of the vast, vast majority of them (which I know is what you were actually saying).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 16:17 
SupaMod
User avatar
Est. 1978

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 69713
Location: Your Mum
Trooper wrote:
I don't think they are the same though, they are getting better and better, and have now hit the mainstream. Sure they have always been around, but not to this extent.

Do you not think that's just down to ease of distribution, though?

_________________
Grim... wrote:
I wish Craster had left some girls for the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 16:42 
User avatar
ugvm'er at heart...

Joined: 4th Mar, 2010
Posts: 22391
Grim... wrote:
Trooper wrote:
I don't think they are the same though, they are getting better and better, and have now hit the mainstream. Sure they have always been around, but not to this extent.

Do you not think that's just down to ease of distribution, though?


...and the ease of creation.

I care not how the golden age has come upon us, I care only that it is here.
And I rejoice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 16:53 
8-Bit Champion
User avatar
Two heads are better than one

Joined: 16th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14517
Trooper wrote:
I care not how the golden age has come upon us, I care only that it is here.
And I rejoice.


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 21:49 
User avatar
Chinny chin chin

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 15695
Trooper wrote:

Is the recent uprise in the indie game bringing all that back? It certainly feels like it to me, we are all going back to the start again...



The Pickfords seem to be proof of this. Magnetic Billiards is a chip off their old "surefire budget smash" block. Yes it's all glossy and modern but it has exactly the same feel as their old games did.

Gaming got a bit shit when it started to be done by huge dev houses by committee.

And the 8 bits still get me excited. When I saw Star Sabre the other week on the CPC I felt exactly the same way as I did back in the day if I had seen a standout title. But sadly I can't go to school and rub all the Speccy owners noses in it!



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 22:23 
User avatar
Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14416
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful, by the way. I think I've purchased two of them ever (Soul and some awesome shooty one) (I really liked Soul though; twaz great).

That's what the true bedroom coders are doing right? Producing endless shit with zombies in-em.

Can we call the likes of, say, Journey, indie?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 22:34 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 22:48 
User avatar
Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
Posts: 4355
Dimrill wrote:
<null>


Just checked out the YouTube video for quantum ninja. Fucking incredible.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=txV-KzfSPrw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtxV-KzfSPrw


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 22:53 
User avatar
Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14416
It's got a dinosaur skeleton riding an aircraft carrier!

But seriously, Soul was brilliant for what it was.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 22:54 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
Play it. The sound effects make it EVUN BETTAR!

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 23:25 
User avatar
Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17161
Location: Just Outside That London, England, Europe
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.

Did you see his Kickstarter. With a met goal.

Yes, really.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arc ... me-creator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 23:37 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
Mr Dave wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.

Did you see his Kickstarter. With a met goal.

Yes, really.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arc ... me-creator


By the power of greyskull... just... I.... phhhhh. I wonder which publisher will release that on the Bone.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 23:43 
User avatar
Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17161
Location: Just Outside That London, England, Europe
Dimrill wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.

Did you see his Kickstarter. With a met goal.

Yes, really.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arc ... me-creator


By the power of greyskull... just... I.... phhhhh. I wonder which publisher will release that one the Bone.

I'm sure you're gutted his other project didn't meet the $10000 requested.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arc ... zza-driver

I mean - Just look at those graphics.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 23:49 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
Quote:
A "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure" Game that will have "Quick Time Event" (QTE)s from the Gamer. Also Features "Real Life" Driving Video that would have "Interactive" Milestones that would affect the Game's Overall Outcome.


That's a lot of quotation marks. It would appear that you'd select a destination, pressing X to turn left when prompted, or even B to turn right. When prompted. Going by his previous "games" (or Previous Games, going by his "risks and challenges" section), it'd be Google Maps images of Streetview for the realistic driving part. Sounds riveting. Or the sounds of riveting.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:06 
SupaMod
User avatar
"Praisebot"

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17093
Location: Parts unknown
Dimrill wrote:

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.


I'm glad you've said this because I think it too, I was just afraid of going against the grain.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:33 
User avatar

Joined: 31st Mar, 2008
Posts: 1883
They've only just shut down the last proper arcade in Barcelona this week. The newest game they had was Afterburner Climax from 2006. Only gambling machines left here now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 17:33 
User avatar
Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
Posts: 4355
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.


i've just paid 80 moon points for it and played it.

I'm actually quite upset.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 17:40 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
It's Indie gaming at its finest!


BLERUGH!

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 17:46 
User avatar
Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14416
Findus Fop wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.


i've just paid 80 moon points for it and played it.

I'm actually quite upset.


Now get Soul. It'll make you feel better about "indie" gaming.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 17:48 
User avatar
Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
Posts: 4355
Saturnalian wrote:
Findus Fop wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.


i've just paid 80 moon points for it and played it.

I'm actually quite upset.


Now get Soul. It'll make you feel better about "indie" gaming.


that does look quite nifty. Is it a spunk simulator?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 17:52 
User avatar
Bad Girl

Joined: 20th Apr, 2008
Posts: 14416
Yes?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 17:55 
User avatar
Prince of Fops

Joined: 14th May, 2009
Posts: 4355
Saturnalian wrote:
Yes?


Sold. To the man in the oily mac.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 18:00 
User avatar
Skillmeister

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 27023
Location: Felelagedge Wedgebarge, The River Tib
Solar is gurt bostin.

_________________
Washing Machine: Fine. Kettle: Needs De-scaling. Shower: Brand new. Boiler: Fine.
Archimedes Hotdog Rhubarb Niner Zero Niner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 18:48 
User avatar
Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17161
Location: Just Outside That London, England, Europe
Findus Fop wrote:
Dimrill wrote:
Saturnalian wrote:
The "indie" games on Xbox live are, by and large, dreadful,


Try Quantum Ninja. I'll never forget that.

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.


i've just paid 80 moon points for it and played it.

I'm actually quite upset.


:DD :DD :DD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 19:10 
User avatar
Paws for thought

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
Posts: 17161
Location: Just Outside That London, England, Europe
Alas, I do seem to have deleted my collection of mind bogglingly bad Xbox Indie games, aside from the aforementioned Quantum Ninja, Avatour and Pirate Cubes (Which somehow manages to make dangerous Streets appear to be an amazingly accomplished beat em up)

I do remmeber Avatar High Five being a particular strong point.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The ghost of gaming past
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 23:22 
User avatar
Worst

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 6197
TheVision wrote:
Dimrill wrote:

I retch over the term "indie". I fucking hate it. It's got that sheen of hipster (yes, i hate that word too) twattishness about it.


I'm glad you've said this because I think it too, I was just afraid of going against the grain.

Surely it just means 'not made by a major developer'? :shrug:

_________________
>Image<


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PRISM and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search within this thread:
You are using the 'Ted' forum. Bill doesn't really exist any more. Bogus!
Want to help out with the hosting / advertising costs? That's very nice of you.
Are you on a mobile phone? Try http://beex.co.uk/m/
RIP, Owen. RIP, MrC. RIP, Dimmers.

Powered by a very Grim... version of phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.