Be Excellent To Each Other

Short (6 minutes) on the making of Tomb Raider



And the panel at NerdHQ SDCC 2012 (5 parts worth)

Looks shite.

It looks like uncharted to me , which i quite liked - however apart from the isometric Lara in TOL then its probably back to the original TR or TR2 since I last enjoyed a Tomb Raider game

(Also mentioned in the panel that they wanted to try and get away from the idea of the hero killing all these people and not feeling anything , which I know is something thats often thrown up about Uncharted )

It looks like an Uncharted rip-off with far too many quick time events and set pieces where you're not actually doing anything at all. It has an "attempted rape scene" in it. Lara makes sex noises constantly. She kills loads of fucking people constantly (so I'm not sure what their "less killing" line is on that, but it sounds like bullshit).

Another opportunity to return Tomb Raider to what made it great in the first instance flushed down the shitter with a ladle of "controversy" to help it on its way.

I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be anything better than another average missed opportunity.

That's my impression from the material released so far, at least!

Edit: and let's not forget one more thing about the "it's like Uncharted, I loved Uncharted" thing - I've played three Uncharted games this generation already. Bored.

You're right, Hitman will be terrible!

But what was it that made Tomb Raider great in the first place? I played the original to death when it came out, but looking back.. it wasn't actually that great and the only thing I can remember about the game is the T rex.

I fully admitted I was wrong on that one (althought it's not out yet), and I'd do the same with this. I'm just saying what I feel, bro.

Exploration, puzzles, isolation, sporadic encounters with other humans. It was a proper adventure game. None of this killing literally thousands of soldiers and hiding behind knee-high walls.

Didn't we already cover this? It doesn't - it has a man that runs his hand down her side while pinning her to a wall in a QTE.

And even if it did - so? Everyone starts jumping up and down if sex is referenced in a game in any way, while 89% of current games on sale involve brutally killing people.

percentage may be completely made up

I don't think we did cover it, but it's definitely an "attempted rape scene" because a developer specifically called it an "attempted rape scene" as part of Lara's "transformation" into a cold-blooded killer in an interview a couple of months ago which sparked the controversy in the first place.

The cold-blooded killer line also contradicts what they're now apparently saying about it being less about killing people, even though all the footage I've seen as shown her killing numerous "bad guys".

That just isn't Tomb Raider, and as far as I'm concerned they've fallen at the very first hurdle in their attempt to reboot the series. But maybe that's just me. I want fucking tombs, and puzzles, and angry animals. Not hordes of military folk.

This was the counter-argument to a debate that raged on across the internets for a couple of weeks without really ever getting anywhere, so I'm not keen to argue with you about it, and I see your point, but I still think rape is unnecessary in video games, whether or not they wish to be taken seriously as an "art form".

I'm happy for all video games to exist in a world where rape simply doesn't exist. It's not necessary. But yeah, I see your point.

I think %age is listed as too small :-)

I've sent a message to the Mods to move some of the other Tomb Raider bits over from the E3 thread where some of this has already been discussed.

I would suggest at least watching the panel if your interested in the game.

Oh and for me TR1 and 2 were some of the very first isometric 3d puzzle games of that generation that worked , you got a story and a chance to play as Indiana Jones with swan dives off cliffs and some shock and awe moments when you stumbled onto something new (like the T-rex) , they were however very much of their time and really dont hold up well now.

Why don't they hold up, though? Because the 3D is awkward and the controls are shitty? It really has nothing to do with the concept not holding up today. Exploration, puzzles and isolation would still work just fine.

Are you suggesting that it wouldn't, and therefore killing hundreds of soldiers is a necessary evolution?

My main problem is this: "It's like Uncharted and I loved Uncharted" but we already have Uncharted! What about a Tomb Raider game? Something different like the original? How is it a good thing that instead of making something a bit different they're just making a re-skinned clone of a game that we already have a trilogy of perfectly executed examples of?

That's my problem. It might turn out to be a fine game - just like Uncharted - but that's also my problem. It could've been something else. It seems lazy and unimaginative to me.

The last two games in the series (not counting Guardian of Light) had, in places, 'hordes of military folk' but those sections didn't get in the way of all the tombs and puzzles for me so I'm not bothered either way about the combat. I mean, it would be good if it was excellent fun but as long as it's not the main focus I don't really care too much.

Tombs and Puzzles and Hordes of military... Assassins Creed you say?

Any 3rd Person or 1st Person Shooter or run around game will be like another as we have had so many.

TR
Assassins Creed 1, 2
Batman.

I played the first few levels of AC1 before it bored me stupid and I didn't come across any puzzles or tombs.

They must have all merged into one for me... Definitely Ezio does a lot of puzzles.

One of the things I liked about Tomb Raider the first was the feeling that you were going through a tomb which had been long abandoned.
Hordes of men to shoot get in the way of that (Andcertainly, fot eh amount of Tomb Raider that I played, I don't remember any men. They may get more prevalent later).
Wild chompy things don't.

(See also: Why I think Metroid Prime is very awesome. And Metroid Prime 3 I haven't touched)

Eh? That's not even my point. My point is they should've made it more like the original games. I honestly don't even know what you're responding to with this comment!

I agree - but if you took the original two Tomb Raider games and released HD versions of them I dont think you'd get anyone enjoying them for anything other than their nostalgia value.

At the time they were revolutionary , but everything else copied what they did well and added more onto it and the newer Tomb Raiders did not



No I'm not - and from the various bits I've seen about this I've not see that she's now 'killing hundreds of soldiers' (although that may well be the case)



People with a PS3 may well have Uncharted , people on Xbox or PC do not.



Great - go off and make it !



No one that I can see is saying this is a 'clone' of uncharted , most people are saying that a number of things on here 'remind' us of uncharted.

When Uncharted was announced were you sitting there going "why are you making a Tomb Raider clone - we've already had Tomb Raider - make something new"



What would you have liked it to be then ?

As someone else has said. TR was original, but that was 10+ years ago.

Do you really want TR remade but with shiny graphics?

It definitely did get in the way, though! That's why they were universally declared "average to shit". The last genuinely good Tomb Raider game was Aniversary, and that was a remake of the first game!

I'd like a game that makes the use of guns more like they were portrayed in the TV show "Without A Trace" - when a character pulled the trigger it fucking mattered.

I know what you mean here because, although I didn't play the original Tomb Raider games, I did play the remake of the first one in the new engine (Tomb Raider: Anniversary) and the feeling of loneliness was more pronounced in that one. In the other two (Legend and Underworld) though it's generally pretty obvious whether you're in a 'shooty' bit or a 'solve massive scale puzzles in deserted underground temple' bit and rarely do the two interfere with each other so I felt that you still got your fix of actual tomb raiding in that respect.

This isn't what I'm saying either! The hell?! Anniversary did that a few years back.

I just want the puzzles and the exploration back. Instead we're getting a shooting people Uncharted clone. Which amazingly people seems excited about, despite there already being three of those that are almost perfect! Why are people so happy to just swallow more of the same in this industry?

It's Kovacs, even he rarely knows what he's responding to.



Yer arse. For one, I thoroughly enjoyed them both so your 'universally declared' line is on dodgy ground with me. And for two, even if everyone thought the shooty bits sucked, the massive scale puzzles were still very much present and correct (and it's not like you had to solve puzzles and shoot people at the same time) so I don't see how one aspect could completely ruin the other.

Because, as with the film industry, the publishers have to invest huge amounts of money to develop a game. Knowing that many, many, versions of the game played will be pirate versions, for which they receive no income, they have to decide what to produce. Much like films, And “FPS Bang Bang IV” franchise will sell much more to cushion these lost sales than the independent “Untried concept and control method”, which would take the same amount of cash to develop. So, it’s those that pirate games that are to blame for this lack of originality, as nowadays, publishers can't afford the risk of trying soemthing new.

I really, really liked Tomb Raider on the Playstation. I was really disappointed with the sequel, and played it for a bit, got stuck in Venice and couldn't be bothered. haven't touched one since.

I admit, I didn't mind the latter one. It was a pretty decent Tomb Raider game. The one before it though (the first one on next-gen consoles), was fucking dire.

Totally! It's just depressing when I see the people who actually buy the games happily swallowing it up regardless! We've had three Uncharted games. They range from "very bloody good" to "outstanding". This new Tomb Raider is essentially a rip-off of that formula. It's not going to do it as well. Naughty Dog are top of their game. It just isn't going to match up to it. And even if it does, we already have three as I say!

That's why I think people should be disappointed that this Tomb Raider game is what it is. It could've been something totally different, something that felt really fresh, and something that brought the series back to its roots - what made it so good in the first place. I just think it's a shame that they've been secretly beavering away on this new game for years behind closed doors, and when they finally show it off, they've just ripped off a game that most people have already played three times - one of which only came out six months ago!

Right so you actually admit to enjoying Underworld, even as an actual Tomb Raider game, and although you didn't think much of Legend the Xbox version of it got 80% on Metacritic which puts a rather large hole through your 'universally declared "average to shit"' line. So, what are we arguing about again?

I was just saying there are different options other than TR.

If you like puzzles or tombs etc....

Never mind!

PS3 owners have. "Everyone who has a games system that isn't a PS3" is a significant untapped market still.

Tomb Raider Legend was fucking terrible! I don't care what Metacritic says. It was really poor. And besides, my beef isn't with the more recent Tomb Raider games, it's with this new one that was promised as a "reboot".

Those people are idiots!

Perhaps this is aimed at people that have not played Unchartered (me included).
We have been gamers a long time 20+ years, we have seen a lot of games.

Perhaps the companies are trying to sell to the new generation of gamers.. I dunno.

The COD/BF sell well, very well. Not my cup of tea although I dip into them.

Like Uncharted was a rip-off of Tomb Raider? Drake even raided some tombs!


Unless it does.

True that, but it also was more about exploration (in actual tombs!) and puzzle solving than killing people...

That's bollocks. I mean the part about it costing loads of money is true but that's the reason they release 'safe' games; because they think those will sell more and allow them to recoup more of their investment. Whether and how many copies are pirated has no bearing on it because there will be an amount of piracy involved in a safe or risky game so why would that drive a decision? You've taken a perfectly straightforward argument and crow-barred a piracy rant into it in a really bizarre fashion.

FFs I did not realise you were comparing this game to a 1 platform specific game.

The fuckers producing a game for folks without PS3s.... lol

I watched my nephew play an Uncharted game online. It looked quite spiffy.

Uncharted wasn't really a rip-off of Tomb Raider, though. They share similar Indiana Jones/adventure movie tropes, but they're pretty different games all told. Well, Uncharted is certainly a different game to the earlier Tomb Raiders, which were the good ones.

Uncharted is about action, shooting and climbing. Tomb Raider is about puzzles, climbing and exploration. They are undoubtedly similar and I have no doubt that Uncharted was initially developed because of Tomb Raider's success/inspired by Tomb Raider, but I wouldn't call it a rip-off.

However, I would call this new Tomb Raider game a rip-off of Uncharted, and that's what's sad! Tomb Raider was doing its own thing (before it went off the rails and got a bit silly with all the killing), and now instead of going back to its roots, it's just directly copying off a game that it inspired.

What are you basing all this on?

Yeah it was. I think I may have failed to explain my main whinge here. My main problem with what happened to the Tomb Raider games was the introduction of more and more killing anonymous military men. The Tomb Raider games always managed to maintain their sense of exploration/puzzling, and that was their saving grace.

My point is, I want a game (like the original), that continues along that exploration/puzzler router, but with fewer human enemies to kill. The original Tomb Raider had four (or so) human enemies in the whole game. I want that!

Instead, they've ripped off Uncharted which is a straight-up action shooter game in a Tomb Raider setting.

Er, playing the games. All of them.

Except the new one.

That hasn't ever stopped us before.

All of them but the most important one (in terms of this conversation), you mean?

You're stretching a bit saying "They're ripping off Uncharted" at this point, I'd have said.

You mean the game that isn't even out yet? Are we not allowed to speculate about anything any more? They've released more than enough material to get an idea about what the game is going to be like. See: The start of this thread!

That's the entire point of this material. To generate interest. To show people what sort of game they ought to expect. They're showing off an Uncharted clone. There's no doubt about it.