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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:05 
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Zardoz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
So, it's ok for me to call you all arsehole-sucking gobshites as long as you know my name? Gotcha.

If they know your true name you're open to magical attack!

Stupid sexy Landers.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:05 
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Because if it's defamation, the law already exists. If it's not defamation, what's this law intended to achieve?

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:06 
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Can you dig it?

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Grim... wrote:
Anyway - I still can't see any specific reasons why people are objecting to it.

What's the downside, haterz?


It might cut down on the amount of drahma, and/or lulz :(

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:14 
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La Bamba

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Craster wrote:
Because if it's defamation, the law already exists. If it's not defamation, what's this law intended to achieve?


Maybe to make people behave the same way across the board.

I read a book by Jeremy Clarkson once. I can't remember the exact name of it, but he did an article on "debating" or basically arguing. In it he wrote that if you went to the local pub and began a "debate" that it would usually go on for so long before one participant thumps the other one, taking care of it quickly. I guess you could apply that to the internet, where arguments (usually really fucking stupid ones) have no limitations because there are no rules, or laws.

What I'm saying is that you often find that people have a set of rules for general life (IE - smile along when you're thinking DIE CUNT DIE) and a set of rules for the internet, where all of a sudden many people act differently to how they would in real life.

Now me? I've always basically portrayed my internet persona as I do my real life one. I can be rude, silly and completely miss the gist of a conversation and take things in the wrong context. This usually results in me either becoming confused or rather pissed off. But any one who has met me in the real world has always said "wow, you're just like the person on the internet !" as if they expected me to be different. I'm not. I'm outspoken, loud mouthed and opinionated, usually off tangent to reality. But apparently that's normal for Aspies like myself.

But it doesn't always work like that. I've met people from the internet who, in two hours of being in front of them said about ten words. Rather different to the person I knew from the internet, who could take on the world with a bucket of foul language.

One of those meetings was with a guy who I never met again. I'm not surprised, as in my company he seemed perfectly nice. However, when he got back to Massachusetts that evening I was this great big cunt who he didn't like very much.

Funny that !

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:24 
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One downside that occurs to me is that people running websites with user generated content could, depending on the make-up of the users, start to get inundated with "U TOTES NEED TO TELL ME WHERE SHITBANDFAN99 LIVES COS SHE SED I SMELLED OF POO AND I RILLY DONT AND YOU NEED TO TELL ME NOW COS THE FBI OR SOMETHING SED SO!!1111!!" type requests which is at least going to be a pain in the arse and, at worst, could become a serious time burden on them.

There's also this quote from the article:

Quote:
Our proposed approach will mean that website operators have a defence against libel as long as they identify the authors of allegedly defamatory material when requested to do so by a complainant.


The upshot is, as the criticism in the article notes, that sites will be more likely to just hand over details instantly regardless of the content of claim because it's easier and less risk to them personally. Of course you still need to go to the ISP and get their personal details mapped to IP address and all that jazz (which the article completely fails to cover of course) before it's any use but still, it doesn't seem like a step in a good direction. Especially because, in the example case the article uses, Facebook handed over the required details without fighting it so the complainant got exactly what they would get anyway under the proposed law; so how is anyone benefiting from the change? It does feel like another example of people who don't understand the technology or process behind these things being seen to change something for the sake of being seen to do it and not because it'll make an appreciable positive difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:27 
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MaysLanding wrote:
Craster wrote:
Because if it's defamation, the law already exists. If it's not defamation, what's this law intended to achieve?


Maybe to make people behave the same way across the board.

I read a book by Jeremy Clarkson once. I can't remember the exact name of it, but he did an article on "debating" or basically arguing. In it he wrote that if you went to the local pub and began a "debate" that it would usually go on for so long before one participant thumps the other one, taking care of it quickly. I guess you could apply that to the internet, where arguments (usually really fucking stupid ones) have no limitations because there are no rules, or laws.




There are laws that govern behavbiour on the internet. Specifically, ones to do with defamation and harrassment and this sort of behaviour that appears to be being codified in a clearer fashion here. It is true that people don't follow them, but that doesn't stop them existing. The internet is not a free place to do as you want to.

EDIT: I do agree with Bamba's points, I think that yes, sites will capitulate very quickly. it'd be the quick win, as they wouldn't want to take the risk for having JonnyLoser1980 saying "X is the sort of shit film paedos like" or somesuch, whereas their own editorial stuff will be tighter. You'll rpoabbly also agree to details being passed laong at the first asking as well when signing up to this sort of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:34 
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La Bamba

Joined: 27th May, 2012
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Bamba wrote:
Stuff


It hasn't changed that much tbh. Five years ago I had a "Fuckwit spite krew" who were determined to post not very nice things about me, with my full name and address attached to each post (so that it could be found if you searched my name in Google).

I took it onboard for a while and shrugged it off. Then I ended up losing out on a job prospect because the prospective employer decided to do a bit of sniffing and found my full name on forums that were "detrimental to the gambling industry". IE - I was this nasty naughty person who was creating emulated fruit machines and giving them away, and they didn't like that as I could have stolen their secrets.

Of course I wouldn't, but they weren't really in the listening mood. So I decided from that moment on to fight back a little and have things removed from forums. Basically if a forum contains defamatory remarks/posts/personal information about some one all you need to do is contact the host. At that moment it's up to them to either remove it themselves or, ask the person who runs the forum to do so. Now round one was hate site number 1.

Hate site number one was on a server. I contacted the hosts, and they told me that yes, the posts there were indeed defamatory and they contacted the little shit running the place and asked him to be nice and remove it. He replied "Fuck off, I will move it to another server !". So, they deleted the entire forum and ended his contract with them.

What he wasn't aware of was that the host he was moving it to was a close personal friend of mine who had given him some free space to use. He was going to use it to "fight the system" as he put it, so I phoned my mate who told me to wait until he had spent a couple of days setting it all up, at which point he would delete it :DD So LOL in hand he did just that, which seemed to enrage our little pillock even more.

Attempt three was yet another piece of web space owned by (this time) a friend of his. Said friend of his had already announced that he wasn't going to "back down or give up because it was a 'just' campaign they were fighting. I was evil, and the whole world needed to know about it".

In other words - I was close friends with the guys who coded and created the software that was used for the emulation, and I had newer more modern versions of this code with things in it that were not for public release. They knew this, which made them mad. So, I guess they thought they could bully me into handing it over. The more I replied with a swift "fuck off, you've got more chance of being handcuffed to a ghost" the more they became angry.

In the end I think I had about five forums closed down. Which sort of took the wind out of their sails and calmed them down a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:41 
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Quote:
Basically if a forum contains defamatory remarks/posts/personal information about some one all you need to do is contact the host. At that moment it's up to them to either remove it themselves or, ask the person who runs the forum to do so


This is bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 14:46 
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BTW on the 'go team humanity' and the legal aspects theres an interesting post on TheOatMeal

Link : http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk_letter

Its currently raised over $100,000 for charity

http://www.litigationandtrial.com/2012/ ... e-oatmeal/

Quote:
FunnyJunk v. The Oatmeal Threatened Lawsuit Going Nowhere

I love writing about lawsuits and I love reading The Oatmeal, so imagine my joy when I heard that The Oatmeal was threatened with “a federal lawsuit!” Hooray! Unfortunately, I doubt it’s as much fun for everyone else, and deep down the case raises a very important issue: the extent to which artists can complain in public about perceived or actual infringement of their works by user-generated content websites.

The Oatmeal (nom de plume for Matthew Inman) writes and draws original comics. FunnyJunk is a user-driven humor site where users post primarily pictures, some of which are entirely original, some of which are taken from other sources and then modified, and some of which are simply copied. A year ago, The Oatmeal got tired of seeing all of his comics copied there, without any attribution, and so he posted a blog post ranting about FunnyJunk:

Here’s how FunnyJunk.com’s business operates:

Gather funny pictures from around the internet
Host them on FunnyJunk.com
Slather them in advertising
If someone claims copyright infringement, throw your hands up in the air and exclaim “It was our users who uploaded your photos! We had nothing to do with it! We’re innocent!”
Cash six-figure advertising checks from other artists’ stolen material

Nate Anderson at Wired covered the whole thing. As best I can tell, it ended with most, but not all, of The Oatmeal’s works being removed, and The Oatmeal giving up on the rest. This is how a lot of pre-litigation disputes end: a big, messy spat followed by a partial resolution to avoid litigation. Litigation is expensive and burdensome.

Then earlier this week FunnyJunk, through their lawyer Charles Carreon, served Matthew Inman with a threatening letter demanding he remove any mention of FunnyJunk from his website and pay FunnyJunk $20,000.

If you haven’t seen it, do read The Oatmeal’s hilarious response to FunnyJunk. It seems he’s already raised $60,000 for “bearlove” and cancer prevention.

Let’s review the actual allegations. Here’s the key part of FunnyJunk’s demand letter:

In short, FunnyJunk alleges The Oatmeal defamed it by accusing it of willful — and thus potentially criminal — copyright infringement, and claims the allegedly false statements about FunnyJunk constitute false advertising in violation of the Lanham Act.

One thing to get straight from the get-go: The Oatmeal’s response to the threatening letter linked to dozens of pages that purportedly continued to host The Oatmeal comics. (The ones I checked were broken links, but that may have been FunnyJunk taking them down.) I thus assume that, when The Oatmeal published the statements in question, and continuing until today, FunnyJunk has hosted unauthorized copies of The Oatmeal comic strips. It is likely that this fact alone will result in an immediate dismissal of any lawsuit against The Oatmeal, because the key allegedly defamatory fact — that FunnyJunk was infringing on The Oatmeal’s copyright — is in fact true. Many courts will not care if FunnyJunk claims it acted in a timely fashion in response to every DMCA request it received, because those courts will assume that the essence of the lawsuit is unfounded, and there’s no way FunnyJunk can prove The Oatmeal defamed it or falsely advertised in violation of the Lanham Act.

But let’s assume for a moment that it isn’t enough to get the case dismissed. Reading the FunnyJunk letter closely, I think their argument is that The Oatmeal claimed the infringement was intentional, not just that infringement is happening on their site (as is commonplace on any site with user-generated content).

Let’s start with the Lanham Act. FunnyJunk’s letter includes a typo, there is no “15 USC 1125(a)(B),” but there is a “15 USC 1125(a)(1)(B),” which prohibits people from “misrepresent[ing] the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activities.” I’m not sure how that could possibly apply here, and the letter gives no indication. It’s indisputable that FunnyJunk was indeed hosting some of The Oatmeal’s comics; what more “nature, characteristics [or] qualities” are described?

Next up is defamation. There are some vague references online to the owner of FunnyJunk living in New York, and Inman himself lives in Seattle, Washington, so there’s already a question of which state’s laws apply. New York courts are not particularly keen on extending jurisdiction to allegedly defamatory claims on out-of-state websites. SPCA of Upstate N.Y., Inc. v. Am. Working Collie Assn., 18 N.Y.3d 400 (N.Y. 2012)(New York must have a “substantial relationship” with the activities of the website and the pending claim); Rescuecom Corp. v. Hyams, 477 F. Supp. 2d 522, 530 (N.D.N.Y. 2006) (“the fact that the subject of the allegedly defamatory online postings is located in New York does not support New York jurisdiction”). So FunnyJunk probably has to sue The Oatmeal in Washington.

Washington is just as protective of the First Amendment as every other state (Citizen Media Law sums up Washington’s laws), and so defamation is generally quite hard to prove, requiring proof of “(1) falsity, (2) an unprivileged communication, (3) fault, and (4) damages.” Maison de France, Ltd. v. Mais Oui!, Inc., 108 P. 3d 787 (Wash. Ct. App. 2005). “Unprivileged” is irrelevant here, that’s for statements made in court or for medical treatment, et cetera. We’re also assuming, for this analysis, that FunnyJunk can prove it did not intentionally host infringing copies of The Oatmeal, which would satisfy “falsity.” If they can’t prove that, any lawsuit would be frivolous.

Thus, assuming FunnyJunk can prove they didn’t intentionally infringe on The Oatmeal’s works, they still have to prove “fault” and “damages.”

Let’s start with “damages.” The FunnyJunk letter essentially admits they won’t be able to prove any actual financial damages arising from The Oatmeal’s statements, which means they’re going to have to prove the statements were a special type of truly inflammatory defamation, called “defamation per se,” for which damages are presumed, both under First Amendment law and under Washington State law. See Maison de France, Ltd., supra (“We hold that under Dun & Bradstreet [Inc., v. Greenmoss Builders, Inc., 472 U.S. 749 (1985)], where no matters of public concern are involved, presumed damages to a private plaintiff for defamation without proof of actual malice may be available”).

There is one, just one, case I know of in the country that has said, in a footnote, that alleging someone willfully infringed a copyright might constitute defamation. Smith v. Summit Entertainment LLC, No. 3:11CV348, U.S.D.C. N.D. Ohio (June 6, 2011)(“a false claim that an artistic work infringes another’s copyright might be defamatory per se“). But I’m skeptical that this argument is going to go anywhere, because willful infringement is a blurry concept in the law, making The Oatmeal’s statements susceptible to multiple meanings.

Consider the Viacom v. Youtube opinion from earlier this year, which drew concepts from vicarious liability to apply a “right and ability to control” analysis to Youtube’s handling of user-generated content. Recall that Viacom lost at every step of the five-year case until that Second Circuit opinion earlier this year — were Viacom’s prior allegations in the press about YouTube defamatory? Or consider the Grokster case which, as Lawrence Lessig explained, imposed the same standards of liability on a party that merely “induced” infringement as if they had willfully infringed it themselves — does that make an accusation of inducing infringement, as is made all the time against BitTorrent, defamatory? How can it be defamation per se to allege something that’s at best a blurry concept in the law, subject to multiple meanings, some of which are potentially defamatory, others not? I submit that it’s not.

Then there’s the question of “fault.” Notably, Washington courts are quite prone to call plaintiffs “limited-purpose public figures” if the plaintiff drew themselves into the discussion, as FunnyJunk quite plainly did a year ago (see the Wired article), and so they’re going to have to prove “actual malice” to win.

Again, we’re assuming for this analysis that FunnyJunk can prove it did not intentionally infringe upon The Oatmeal’s comics, even if it indisputably continued to host The Oatmeal’s comics in various locations. If you haven’t noticed, The Oatmeal is a funny, satirical site that tends to exaggerate for effect. Open up the source code and you are greeted by a full-page Pterodactyl launching expletives at you in ALL-CAPS. As the Washington Court of Appeals has said, however, when humor is involved, even “actual malice” is too low a bar, and the plaintiff has to prove even more:

When, however, the allegedly defamatory expression at issue is satire, humor, or fiction, this [actual malice] standard cannot be used since in any such work, it is likely the author did not intend the work to be completely truthful. Thus, a different standard has been developed for determining malice in these situations, namely: whether the author intended, or recklessly failed to anticipate, that readers would construe the publication as a statement of defamatory facts.

Hoppe v. Hearst Corporation, 770 P.2d 203 (Wash. Ct. App. 1989). Consider The People v. Larry Flynt, which was actually Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell, 485 U.S. 46 (1988), in which Hustler magazine posted a blatantly false “interview” with Jerry Falwell in which he described drunkenly losing his virginity to his own mother in an outhouse. (For example, “INTERVIEWER: But your mom? Isn’t that a bit odd? FALWELL: I don’t think so. Looks don’t mean that much to me in a woman.”)

To prove The Oatmeal was at fault, FunnyJunk needs to prove that The Oatmeal “intended, or recklessly failed to anticipate, that readers would construe” FunnyJunk as intentionally hosting The Oatmeal’s comics without attribution, and that The Oatmeal did so maliciously. Notice carefully what The Oatmeal said in the original post:

I first contacted them about a year ago after I found a handful of my comics uploaded on their site with no credit or link back to me. They took down the offending images, but since then they’ve practically stolen my entire website and mirrored it on FunnyJunk …

Notice the concession that FunnyJunk pulled down early pages, and the hyperbole about “my entire website.” Would a reasonable reader construe this as a statement of anything more than the basic situation, i.e. that FunnyJunk was indisputably failing to catch and to remove The Oatmeal’s images? It’s certainly colorful, accusatory language — but it also says no facts beyond what any reader could easily ascertain, i.e. that the site contained many of The Oatmeal’s original images.

Of course, the likely truth is that FunnyJunk is, like Demi Moore in her foolish past, trying to bully someone into taking something off the internet. Something tells me it’s not going to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 15:03 
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Zardoz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
So, it's ok for me to call you all arsehole-sucking gobshites as long as you know my name? Gotcha.

If they know your true name you're open to magical attack!


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 15:48 
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MaysLanding wrote:
Craster wrote:
Because if it's defamation, the law already exists. If it's not defamation, what's this law intended to achieve?


Maybe to make people behave the same way across the board.

I read a book by Jeremy Clarkson once. I can't remember the exact name of it, but he did an article on "debating" or basically arguing. In it he wrote that if you went to the local pub and began a "debate" that it would usually go on for so long before one participant thumps the other one, taking care of it quickly. I guess you could apply that to the internet, where arguments (usually really fucking stupid ones) have no limitations because there are no rules, or laws.


But this doesn't change that. If you do something that's criminal (threaten, harrass, defame) then it's criminal, whether it's on the internet or in a pub. In fact, it's even more strict because on the internet libel applies, which is (IIRC, IANAL) significantly easier to prosecute than slander.

This won't change behaviours. It will just make life more of a pain in the arse for web hosts.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 15:53 
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Gogmagog

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Craster wrote:
It will just make life more of a pain in the arse for web hosts.


Yes, they will have some choices:

1) Don't let anyone write owt
2) Preapprove everything
3) Carry on as they are at present, but remove anything straight away to avoid being caught up in it any more than they have to be
4) Do nothing
5) try to get users to indemnify them against libel/slander/whatever

If Iw ere they, i'd choose options 3 and 5.

yes, internet counts as libel, as it is published.

EDIT: I'm actually quite pleased that a webpage owner can escape punishment by complying quickly if something is posted by someone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 16:00 
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MaliA wrote:
EDIT: I'm actually quite pleased that a webpage owner can escape punishment by complying quickly if something is posted by someone else.

I'll wipe the entire database before I hand someone's data over.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 16:06 
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Godwins law needs to be updated to include the 'Internet Forum as a Pub' analogy.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 16:20 
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I dunno. Does seem pointless to me. Written by people who are wrong, maybe?

I know that Facebook example was proper defamation, but there's certainly a moral obligation to mock someone for supporting X$Factor or selling-sex-to-minors-boy-band or whatever.

What's to stop a wrong-headed big brother fan from being told it's crap and then demanding to know where you live? Wouldn't they get it by default? I don't like the thought of crazy Internet people knowing where I live. What if I posted on my own Facebook wall that I didn't like pastry, but some pastry nutter is offended? I'd have to keep my pie-bile to myself for fear of ending up in a pie or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 16:22 
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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 18:32 
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Grim... wrote:
I'll wipe the entire database before I hand someone's data over.

Even if someone had been genuinely threatening? Would that not make you an accessory/facilitator or otherwise make you associatively culpable?

I suppose the objections will come from the grey areas, where it's not particularly threatening, libellous, or abusive. I imagine plenty of people will start demanding the data of people that just aggressively disagree with them on whatever subject. See also YouTube and abuse of DMCA.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 18:37 
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Prometheus is shit! *movie studio demands my name and address* or am I being too cynical?


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 18:38 
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Pundabaya wrote:
Prometheus is shit! *movie studio demands my name and address* or am I being too cynical?

I think you should be more worried about Stewart Lee ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 18:40 
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Rude Belittler

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Ah but I can simply counter-sue, he is after all using my material in his show without my permission.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 19:04 
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La Bamba

Joined: 27th May, 2012
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MaliA wrote:
Quote:
Basically if a forum contains defamatory remarks/posts/personal information about some one all you need to do is contact the host. At that moment it's up to them to either remove it themselves or, ask the person who runs the forum to do so


This is bullshit.


Not at the time it wasn't. The hosts are, or were, inevitably responsible for what was stored on their servers. Ask :attitude: lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 19:10 
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Pundabaya wrote:
Ah but I can simply counter-sue, he is after all using my material in his show without my permission.

Touché! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 19:23 
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Gogmagog

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MaysLanding wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Quote:
Basically if a forum contains defamatory remarks/posts/personal information about some one all you need to do is contact the host. At that moment it's up to them to either remove it themselves or, ask the person who runs the forum to do so


This is bullshit.


Not at the time it wasn't. The hosts are, or were, inevitably responsible for what was stored on their servers. Ask :attitude: lol.


They have no duty to remove it, they do so out of fear of litigation. They balance the risk against being made party to a litigation case (and as libel cases aren't available on the cheap, it's a fairly easy sum to do) against whatever perceived benefit they have from keeping it up there. They can keep it up all they want to if they so desire. This hasn't changed since the invention of such media.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 19:24 
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Gogmagog

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Pundabaya wrote:
Prometheus is shit! *movie studio demands my name and address* or am I being too cynical?


No, that's a review. it's allowed.

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MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 0:29 
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Relevant: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/inter ... thing-nice

Say what you like about the virtues or otherwise of her project idea, but there's no justification for the reaction it provoked.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:25 
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Kvnt

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Aye, it's utterly indefensible, deeply disgusting shit. The amount of blackshirt lunatics the project appears to have riled up is really quite a sickener...

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:31 
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Thinking about the original post, I'm quite relaxed about the proposal, provided it's drafted properly to avoid vexatious claims.We already have strict laws about harassment, and just because it's happening online doesn't change what it is. Yes, there are concerns about 'chilling effects' and accusations of 'we're becoming like the Chinese communists' but there's a difference, I think, between free speech and putting people in fear of their lives. Drawing the distinction, and framing the legislation, is the tricky part.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:50 
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Board Mother

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Won't this go against data protection? Or is everything on the internet fair game these days?

Wouldn't a real troll find it very easy to get around by using public WiFi?

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:28 
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Unpossible!

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Or a spoofed IP address if you're feeling flash


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:38 
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Comfortably Dumb

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Relevant: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/inter ... thing-nice

Say what you like about the virtues or otherwise of her project idea, but there's no justification for the reaction it provoked.


Even a few of the comments on the article itself are in pretty poor taste too.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:21 
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Kvnt

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Oh aye, true to form, the comments on even that page are a ghastly pile of confused victim-blaming rubbish that essentially attempt to justify the attacks because of petty personal disagreements.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:27 
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I worry about this. Sure, anyone with decency hates the cynical, petty, small minded, agenda-bearing hate-spewers, the hate-blog stalkers, the cowardly, uber-rude keyboard warriors and internet trolls; we've all come across them in our time, including even here and elsewhere, and we all know the character(s) that I'm thinking about here - their (finally) having some comeuppance is no bad thing, right?

However (and call me a tin foil hat wearing conspiricist by all means), I'm concerned at the prospect of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. To my mind, this seemingly well intentioned scheme is laying down the legal infrastructure for "outing" anyone and potentially everyone who supposedly causes offence - not only to individuals, but also to corporations and any other entity, including the political. Its effect is liable to curtail much of the freedom of the internet (even if largely perceived rather than actual), and hence free speech.

In short, I worry that this is likely to represent further curtailment of our liberties and more control, something that I suspect has been desired for some time - and the trolls are merely the excuse that's needed to enact such a thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:43 
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Largely my thoughts on it, Cavey. It would set a worrying precedent IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 17:06 
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Legendary Boogeyman

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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Relevant: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/inter ... thing-nice

Say what you like about the virtues or otherwise of her project idea, but there's no justification for the reaction it provoked.

Very interesting stuff, and quite right, there's no call for it. I think the mobilisation of such a wealth of childish, sexist morons is a prime example of what the bill amendments would help to tackle. These people operate with an anonymous group mentality, thinking they're safe because they're unknown and one of many.

Being able to demonstrate that YouTube will give up your IP, your ISP will give up your identity, and legal action will be launched, will be a prime deterrent. But to be effective, it needs to be harsh and very widely applied. Much of human behavior is determined using risk vs. reward mechanics, and so here the risk of jokingly threatening to 'rape' a feminist needs to be decisively dealt with and then very widely publicised.

With regard to the project: Crap idea, not least because I don't see it costing $6000 to play a few games and then talk about them. Plenty of people do that in their spare time at no meaningful cost. I'd be far more interested in a video series that tackles the tired stereotypes used in games for both sexes.

Ironically this abuse will have found her far more supporters than it would have been otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 17:08 
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La Bamba

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If there's fine money in it it will be well done. Any time the govt can rake in free cash from slapping people on the wrists they will.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 18:10 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Ironically this abuse will have found her far more supporters than it would have been otherwise.

As mentioned at the bottom of the article, she's got way more money than she asked for now.

I quite like the idea, but it's a subject I've been interested in for a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 18:56 
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Being extremely hated on the internet is always profitable. Angry detractors and angry supportors all watching videos, viewing pages, generating ad revenue, and in this case, coughing up cash directly. All very much the opposite of what the trolls would like.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 19:50 
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Gogmagog

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MaysLanding wrote:
If there's fine money in it it will be well done. Any time the govt can rake in free cash from slapping people on the wrists they will.


If it's damages, it gets paid to the injured party, if it's criminal, it goes back into the court sytem.

So the government won't really see any of it at all.

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MaliA isn't just the best thing on the internet - he's the best thing ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 22:03 
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Excellent Member

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Quote:
Being able to demonstrate that YouTube will give up your IP, your ISP will give up your identity, and legal action will be launched, will be a prime deterrent.


No, unfortunately, it won't. Look at the bloke who tweeted stuff about Fabrice Muamba - he will have heard about the guy who threatened to blow up Robin Hood Airport, and he still did it.

From that survey I did for my MSc.

Code:
Are you aware of incidents where people have made postings on SNSs which have got them into trouble with work or legal authorities?

Yes 85.34%
No 14.66%

Do you make positive postings about work related matters on an SNS?

Often 12.07%
Sometimes 24.14%
Rarely 15.95%
Never 47.84%

Do you make negative postings about work related matters on an SNS?

Often 3.45%
Sometimes 9.05%
Rarely 16.81%
Never 70.69%

Have you ever made a posting about work related matters (either positive or negative) on an SNS and then deleted it?

Yes 17.67%
No 82.33%


85% of people know it can be trouble, nearly 30% still had a whinge on Facebook/Twitter about work.

People are fully aware but they still do it. I suspect it is like speeding a few (not many) mph above the limit - they think the chances of getting caught are small enough to take the risk and the high profile cases are still not enough to put people off.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:14 
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Well indeed Plisk, I would agree that is certainly the perception now. Users take it all too lightly, and only the ones that get stung will realise the error of their ways. But if, in future, there is a proliferation of high-profile cases of being getting seriously stamped on for being venemous trolls, that should make a difference.

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Pretty much everyone agrees with Gnomes, really, it's just some are too right on to admit it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:19 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Being extremely hated on the internet is always profitable.

:attitude: nah.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:21 
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Zardoz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Being extremely hated on the internet is always profitable.

:attitude: nah.


Is that from the 'any publicity is good publicity' school of thinking, EBG?

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:36 
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Zardoz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Being extremely hated on the internet is always profitable.

:attitude: nah.

I think you'll find Stu's making a profit - if you don't count the time put in, I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 15:10 
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Having a few dozen people hate you, and everyone else ignore you, isn't the level of profitable hate I mean. Think more Rebecca Black. Even Samantha Brick.

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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Pretty much everyone agrees with Gnomes, really, it's just some are too right on to admit it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 15:19 
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Honey Boo Boo

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Grim... wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Being extremely hated on the internet is always profitable.

:attitude: nah.

I think you'll find Stu's making a profit - if you don't count the time put in, I suppose.


Well yes, charging people to access a forum it's cost you nothing to maintain means that £2 a month is pure profit, profit with which to buy cake icing and starmix and Vimto.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 15:31 
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metalangel wrote:
Well yes, charging people to access a forum it's cost you nothing to maintain means that £2 a month is pure profit, profit with which to buy cake icing and starmix and Vimto.


He does seem to have pretty much given up on the forum no posts in the last 8 days / 4 posts in the last month (and no reply to Grim...'s post over a month ago asking about Cannon Fodder)


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 17:17 
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Paws for thought

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His ridiculous scheme killed his forum. Who would have predicted that?


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 19:51 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Well indeed Plisk, I would agree that is certainly the perception now. Users take it all too lightly, and only the ones that get stung will realise the error of their ways. But if, in future, there is a proliferation of high-profile cases of being getting seriously stamped on for being venemous trolls, that should make a difference.


Speeding can kill.* People still do it. Drink driving can kill. People still do it.

The problem I see is that the real trolls, the ones who cause the real pain and suffering are too smart to get caught. The Muamba cases and the Robin Hood Airport one were heat of the moment. But we've all been on forums where a few people have a campaign of insidiousness and every time they get near a line, they back off a bit.

I'm not sure how you can stop that, really.


(*No, I'm not looking to start that debate again. You know what I mean.)

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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 19:59 
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The only way to stop trolls are UV lights.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey you, troll!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 20:02 
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Ian Fairies wrote:
The only way to stop trolls are UV lights.



I have a vague memory from my D&D days that using a big Axe works pretty well also

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