Western values, Eastern work practices

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22391

I was going to put this in the Apple thread, but it isn't really an Apple issue, even though they may be the most famous of the companies that use Foxconn.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/30/fox ... -overtime/

So, the FLA have told Foxconn that their workers are only allowed to do 36 hours overtime a month, as overworking people is bad bad bad, and the western companies are obviously taking advantage of cheap slave labour. Except, the Foxconn employees are dead set against this change, as they are worried they will lose money. They want to work longer hours and get more overtime, they want the extra money that brings. If they work longer hours they typically earn twice the national yearly average wage.

Is the western world right to try to intervene? Are we saving people from themselves, or do we just not understand their lives and are making life worse for them?

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:06

I think studies have shown that even in atrocious working conditions, the extra money available does lift the workers from poverty, so ends up being a good thing. Should we be mucking about in other people's affairs? Probably not.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Trooper wrote:

Except, the Foxconn employees are dead set against this change, as they are worried they will lose money. They want to work longer hours and get more overtime, they want the extra money that brings. If they work longer hours they typically earn twice the national yearly average wage.

Seems the answer that satisfies both conditions is "higher base wages" rather than "unlimited overtime".

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11897

Surely the point here is that Foxconn workers should be earning more than 36p/hour, not about the Western World imposing their views.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11897

Zardoz · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:19

You should all smash up your iPad 3's in protest.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

On the This American Life broadcast Retraction, in which they famously retract their previous story about Foxconn with Mike Daisey, Ira Glass talks to Charles Duhigg. Duhigg was one of the New York Times journos who wrote the long posts about Foxconn last month.

Duhigg says something that stayed with me:

Quote:

So it's not my job to tell you whether you should feel bad or not, right? I'm a reporter for the New York Times, my job is to find facts and essentially let you make a decision on your own. Let me, let me pose the argument that people have posed to me about why you should feel bad, and you can make of it what you will.

And that argument is there were times in this nation when we had harsh working conditions as part of our economic development. We decided as a nation that that was unacceptable. We passed laws in order to prevent those harsh working conditions from ever being inflicted on American workers again.

And what has happened today is that rather than exporting that standard of life, which is within our capacity to do, we have exported harsh working conditions to another nation.

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6608

Bobbyaro wrote:

Surely the point here is that Foxconn workers should be earning more than 36p/hour, not about the Western World imposing their views.

According to the data I found, Foxconn wages start at 1,800 yuan per month. By official exchange rates, that's $285 per month, which is pretty bad. However, you could argue that as the yuan has been kept artificially low by the Chinese Government to aid exports, that's hardly a meaningful comparison. By comparing the PPP rates, you get a wage of $1000 dollars a month, with the lady in the macrumors.com link earning the equivalent of $2,200 a month. I can't imagine you'd get much more than that working as an assembly line worker in the US.

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:47

I think our houseboy was paid about that in Oman.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22391

Bobbyaro wrote:

Surely the point here is that Foxconn workers should be earning more than 36p/hour, not about the Western World imposing their views.

Why though?

They already get paid the national average, it's the overtime that gets them to twice the national average wage.
Is it really right for a Western agency to tell Foxconn that they must pay twice the national average wage as a basic? Which could make China uncompetitive in the marketplace, and lose those jobs completely?

GovernmentYard · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5318

How much would an iPad cost if it were made entirely in the UK or USA?

It's difficult comparing such different cultures. I learned this weekend that a Chinese girl who arrives here as a family-less refugee may be inclined to get knocked up by the first person she can in order to have a living blood relative, for to not do so would be the greatest shame in her home society.

I would love to know how not having blood relatives can be a cause for shame, and what western customs and practices people who subscribe to this frankly bewildering notion of what makes you a bad person find similarly alien.

We can probably all agree that workplaces should be safe and salaries should afford any worker the opportunity to live a healthy life with some degree of comfort to it, no matter what they feel culturally inclined towards accepting or doing.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

GovernmentYard wrote:

How much would an iPad cost if it were made entirely in the UK or USA?

It's not much at all, but that's also a red herring. I'll quote the TAL transcript again:

Quote:

Ira Glass: One of the most interesting things and one of the newest things, that I
think you pointed out in this series, is that the cost of labor in an iPhone, if it were
made in the United States, would be only about $65 more per phone. I mean
that’s a lot of money if you’re manufacturing stuff, um, but with iPhones selling
with hundreds of dollars of profit in each phone, Apple could still make a profit if
it were manufacturing in the U.S., and you have an entire article where you lay
out that is not actually the main reason these are made overseas at this point.

Charles Duhigg: That's exactly right. And, and that $65, that's the high-end
estimate. Some people told us that you could, from a labor perspective you could
build the iPhone in the United States for just ten extra dollars a phone if you're
paying American wages. But wages, labor is such an enormously small part of
any electronic device, right?

Compared to the cost of buying chips or making sure that you have a plant that
can turn out thousands of these things a day or being able to get strengthened
glass cut exactly right within, you know, two days of this thing being due, that's
what's important. Labor is almost insignificant. What is really important are
supply chains and flexibility of factories. You want to be able to be located right
next to the plant that makes the screws so that when you need a small change to
that screw factory, you can go next door and say, "Give it to me in six hours," and
they can say, "Here you go." Because if that factory was in another state or on
another continent, it would take two weeks. It’s the flexibility within the Chinese
manufacturing system, that’s what you can do in Asia that you can’t do in the
United States.

Ira Glass: There's, there's a bunch of incredible stories you tell in that article, and
one of them is you talk about the number of industrial engineers needed to
oversee 200,000 assembly line, line workers. You say there's 8,700 industrial
engineers that you need. And so to get this plant going, to get this particular
operation going that you were writing about—I can't remember which one it is—
you said it would take nine months to find those 8,700 industrial engineers in the
United States, and in China, how long it took?

Charles Duhigg: 15 days. And that 15 day figure? The guy who told me that,
also told that that’s because they kind of dragged their heels on it a little bit. They
probably could’ve done it faster

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 13:13

Digression: I've been consistently impressed with TAL ever since you foirst put it forward as something to listen to. It's exceptionally well done, always interesting.

Mr Russell · **Joined:** 6th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 12334

Can they just opt out of any Working Time Regulations like we can?

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22391

GovernmentYard wrote:

How much would an iPad cost if it were made entirely in the UK or USA?

About twice the price, assuming all the materials were in the US already, according to a quick google

GovernmentYard wrote:

It's difficult comparing such different cultures. I learned this weekend that a Chinese girl who arrives here as a family-less refugee may be inclined to get knocked up by the first person she can in order to have a living blood relative, for to not do so would be the greatest shame in her home society.

I would love to know how not having blood relatives can be a cause for shame, and what western customs and practices people who subscribe to this frankly bewildering notion of what makes you a bad person find similarly alien.

We can probably all agree that workplaces should be safe and salaries should afford any worker the opportunity to live a healthy life with some degree of comfort to it, no matter what they feel culturally inclined towards accepting or doing.

That's my point though, A healthy life is an absolute and making sure that happens is good, making sure the workplace is safe, sure. but "a degree of comfort" Culturally that comfort means a different thing to different people. The foxconn employees are currently distressed as they think the changes will mean they earn a lot less, is that giving them "comfort"?

I'm being a devil's advocate for something to do today, but I think it is an interesting reaction on behalf of the Foxconn employees, they certianly aren't welcoming the changes with open arms. Do we need to save people from themselves, or do we trust that individuals know their own needs better than outsiders do? I honestly don't know.

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 13:23

Wouldn't increasing wages drastically in Factory A lead to price inflation in the area around factory A, though? Anyone in Factory B will then suffer a lot as a result.

kalmar · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 14:39

Our factory workers (located 20 metres away, in the UK) were at work both days of the weekend until 10.30PM :facepalm:

I'm convinced that's not legal. They got free KFC though!

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22391

MaliA wrote:

Wouldn't increasing wages drastically in Factory A lead to price inflation in the area around factory A, though? Anyone in Factory B will then suffer a lot as a result.

Indeed.

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13386

Trooper wrote:

I'm being a devil's advocate for something to do today, but I think it is an interesting reaction on behalf of the Foxconn employees, they certianly aren't welcoming the changes with open arms. Do we need to save people from themselves, or do we trust that individuals know their own needs better than outsiders do? I honestly don't know.

They're exploited workers, they're modern-day slaves, except this century we just keep them at arm's length and run the pretence of caring about them.

The workers don't 'welcome the changes' insofar as they often have extended families out in the worst poverty-stricken regions depending on them to work themselves to the bone, they're putting their own welfare behind the welfare of their families.

In the UK we put this shit to bed in the 1800s, now we farm out the suffering to the Far East so we can get shiny gadgets a bit cheaper and the likes of Apple can sit on more money than the US Treasury.

It's alright though, it's just globalisation*

* The exportation of penury, suffering, exploitation and misery to less fortunate countries.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

No room for nuance in your world view, is there, AE?

What if we 'put this shit to bed' in the 1800s because that's when we progressed from subsistence farming to industrialised living -- and what if that's what the Chinese are doing right now? I think it's pretty widely accepted that conditions for a Foxconn worker are far in advance of a paddy field worker, whilst being harsher than a Western worker. So how do you propose a nation jump from paddy fields to Western standards without passing through Foxconn? Would you prefer it to be paddy fields forever?

Hearthly · **Joined:** 11th May, 2008 **Posts:** 13386

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

What if we 'put this shit to bed' in the 1800s because that's when we progressed from subsistence farming to industrialised living -- and what if that's what the Chinese are doing right now? I think it's pretty widely accepted that conditions for a Foxconn worker are far in advance of a paddy field worker, whilst being harsher than a Western worker. So how do you propose a nation jump from paddy fields to Western standards without passing through Foxconn? Would you prefer it to be paddy fields forever?

The thing is though, we've already done this before, we know that the path to a modern industrial society can exact a massive toll on the workers who basically prop the whole thing up for the massive enrichment of the few and the minor enrichment, relatively speaking, of the many.

(This surely is not debatable, BTW.)

Terrible working conditions, no paid holidays, no sick pay, no pensions, child labour, no job security, no maternity or paternity rights, unfortunate death or injury being part of the job with no compensation etc etc.

Workers in the Western world fought, and fought hard, to establish these basic rights to a decent working life, through the political systems of the time and organised labour.

Hardcore capitalists, doing what they do best and focusing entirely on making as much money for themselves as they possibly could, simply decided to move to parts of the world where such rules weren't established.

The advancement of technology over the years has allowed countries primarily in the East to move from the production of textiles and lo-tech, to what is now some of the highest technology on the planet - and all the while the maximum profits are extracted from the lowest paid and most abused workers they can possibly find.

It's not a binary choice, it's not 'paddy fields forever' or 'industrialise up a bit' - if Western capitalist forces had the mindset to do so, they could easily spare the workers in companies such as Foxconn the agonies and misery that workers in the Industrial Revolution went through 200 years ago.

Problem is, that's not how to extract the most money from the situation, so they won't do it. And that's why Apple has more money in the bank than the US Treasury has funds available to it as extra debt.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:41

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

No room for nuance in your world view

Does that rhyme?

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22391

AtrocityExhibition wrote:

It's not a binary choice, it's not 'paddy fields forever' or 'industrialise up a bit' - if Western capitalist forces had the mindset to do so, they could easily spare the workers in companies such as Foxconn the agonies and misery that workers in the Industrial Revolution went through 200 years ago.

Problem is, that's not how to extract the most money from the situation, so they won't do it. And that's why Apple has more money in the bank than the US Treasury has funds available to it as extra debt.

I don't disagree, however it's all well and good stating those lofty goals, but how to do that is the question.

Western companies can't employ everyone in China. Even if they manage to put 100 million jobs into the country, all with western working practices, rules, laws and wages, what happens to the other 900 million who aren't employed by them? How do they deal with the rampant inflation caused by paying 100 million people magnitudes above the current average wage? Won't that just cause an even greater imbalance, and make the poorer even worse off?

Maybe the only reason western businesses treat people comparatively well is because they have gone through the journey of the industrial revolution and workers rights. Would we still be in the same place if somebody came in and gave us the solution, but without any of the learning of why that solution is important.

What about needing to get all of the companies in the world to agree to change their approach to business in the developing world, all at the same time, to be able to make this happen.

It's all well and good arguing in the hypothetical, but when you have western practices being imposed for real on developing companies, it drops out of being hypothetical and needs to be thought about in the practical sense.

markh · **Joined:** 13th Oct, 2008 **Posts:** 903

Grim... wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

No room for nuance in your world view

Does that rhyme?

Sounds like a latter day depeche mode lyric.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:41

markh wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

No room for nuance in your world view

Does that rhyme?

Sounds like a latter day depeche mode lyric.

Someone should explain who they are to Malabar.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22391

markh wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

No room for nuance in your world view

Does that rhyme?

Sounds like a latter day depeche mode lyric.

Or Manic Street Preachers

No-oooo-ooo roo-ooo-oom
Foooo-oooo-rrrrr Nuuuu-uuuu-aaance
Iiiii-iiiii-iiiiiii-iiiii-iiiii-nnnnn-nnnnn
Yoo-uurr wooooo-oooo-rrrld view.

MaliA · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:45

Trooper wrote:

markh wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

No room for nuance in your world view

Does that rhyme?

Sounds like a latter day depeche mode lyric.

Or Manic Street Preachers

No-oooo-ooo roo-ooo-oom
Foooo-oooo-rrrrr Nuuuu-uuuu-aaance
Iiiii-iiiii-iiiiiii-iiiii-iiiii-nnnnn-nnnnn
Yoo-uurr wooooo-oooo-rrrld view.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:25

In relation to the topic, I'm of the opinion that the West should mind its own business, and if you're really concerned then you, as a consumer, should source your products from somewhere else.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Grim... wrote:

In relation to the topic, I'm of the opinion that the West should mind its own business, and if you're really concerned then you, as a consumer, should source your products from somewhere else.

I think you'd have to go and live in a cave to avoid made-in-China goods these days, though. It's not a very practical proposition.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:38

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Grim... wrote:

In relation to the topic, I'm of the opinion that the West should mind its own business, and if you're really concerned then you, as a consumer, should source your products from somewhere else.

I think you'd have to go and live in a cave to avoid made-in-China goods these days, though. It's not a very practical proposition.

Aye, but I imagine it was the same for the first vegan. Plus, it beats sitting behind a (Chinese-made) keyboard or pulling out a (Chinese-made) phone and blaming ACME for not spending your money nicely.

If you really care about it then it's time to start up an ethical electronics company.

Plissken · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:00

Grim... wrote:

If you really care about it then it's time to start up an ethical electronics company.

The new BEEX L33T. Now with a graphics card made of hemp and patchouli cooled CPU.

Free dog on a string for the first 100 orders!

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Western values, Eastern work practices
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