Be Excellent To Each Other

I went to uni (due to parental expectations) and hated it so I dropped out. I was only 17 when I ran out of school years and there is no way I could have known then what I wanted to do. By the time I turned 18, I got a decent job which paid brilliantly for someone my age. By the time I was 24, I started wondering how may years were left in the industry (nuclear) in my country never mind my local area, and so felt spurred on to make a career change.
Since leaving school, I had regretted not doing engineering so I started looking into engineering degrees. I couldn't see how I could go from a good salary to no salary though to enable me to study full time for four years. Then I stumbled across an advert for apprenticeships which I had never really heard of expect a vague thought that it was something people who left school at 16 went on to do. I applied, and out of 120 or so people I got one of two jobs. In first year, my salary was £9500. It hurt.
In second year, I got a pay rise to about £14000. It felt like I was a millionaire. By fourth year, I had finally surpassed the salary I was used to earning in the nuclear job and tomorrow, I start working on shift for a three month trial. If it goes well, I get an 18% pay rise on top of the £3000pa pay rise I am getting when I 'graduate' from fourth year to time served.
Best decision I ever made, I love my job and my new shift means I work three days and get four days off. I know that 24 sounds young for a career change, but I still had all the same trappings a 34 year old would have-house, bills,travel. The pay cut was really hard but it was worth it.

I'm genuinely not being facetious here, but having a child/children can have a very positive impact on your life overall and your relationship to work.

Certainly I don't particularly enjoy my job in and of itself (I don't hate it either, I'm kind of ambivalent about it in the main), but I like the people I work with and most importantly it provides for my family, which for me is far more satisfying than 'job satisfaction' itself. (Which is quite a selfish concept really when you think about it, I certainly don't remember my parents' generation blathering on about 'job satisfaction', a job was something you had to do to earn money.)

When my salary arrives in the bank account every month I don't begrudge what I had to do to earn it, because I know that's the roof over our heads, the food on the table, the car that'll take us on trips out, the treats for my daughter, the utilities paid for, and so on - and I take a sense of pride in that, not the job itself.

I realise not everyone can have, or indeed wants to have children, but looking around my peer group (generally folks in their mid to late thirties) I'm struck by how a certain sort of ennui has crept in with those couples who, basically, only have themselves to look after. Sometimes I think to myself 'Of course you're bored and jaded, you've got two wages coming in, you pamper yourselves rotten, you have no responsibilities, and you've got another thirty years of exactly the same to come, I'd be fucking pissed off too....'

YMMV of course! (And again, I realise some couples simply can't have children, where that's the case and they want children, I have every sympathy with them.)

I'm not sure how wanting to enjoy your career is a selfish concept. For something you spend about a quarter of your entire life doing, I think it's quite fair that you chase something that makes you happy, and challenges and interests you.

Yeah but pretty much inevitably, anything that you spend that long doing is going to get boring eventually, and you'll be back in the same position again.

I'm not saying that such careers and/or career trajectories don't exist, but I'd say they're very much in the minority, and betting the ranch as it were on a 'complete career change' being a recipe for happiness is perhaps optimistic.

You're only betting the ranch, as it were, if you've loads to lose. If you hate your career, push for something you'll enjoy. And having kids is going to do nothing other than encourage a ‘put up or shut up’ attitude where you can't afford to chase your dreams any more.

And if you find something you truly enjoy, that isn't fleeting, that changes and engages you, you're not going to get bored easily.

"I never really thought about or wanted children, but now that I'm unhappy with my life now is the perfect time! Now I can be completely trapped here forever, and the children I didn't want can grow up twisted from all my resentment as I'll hold them responsible for being stuck here."

PETALOLZ - that sounds like you're trying to convince yourself rather than anything else. I fucking love not having children to piss my money away on, personally.

I was just putting it out there as a concept, having read through the thread no one else had mentioned it and thought it might be worth doing so

I'm not saying 'unhappy life gets fixed by magic children', just that it can be a very positive life event in a lot of surprising ways.

We wouldn't understand.

Well that's a question of attitude I guess, I certainly don't consider spending money on my daughter as 'pissing it away'

Having just seen your 'we wouldn't understand' post, yeah I know, people who have children endlessly preaching to people who don't have children is sooooo fucking tedious etc etc, but (a) it's a two way street and (b) I've made a couple of posts simply presenting a point of view and you've immediately put your special sarcy hat on, it must be very comfortable since you wear it so much.

I just think it's a crazy suggestion to make to someone who isn't quite sure where their life is going at the moment, especially as they're thinking about making a massive commitment (financial and otherwise) to moving to the other side of the world.

You can't go into starting a family half-heartedly, especially when everything else in your life is up in the air.

Well it was this comment specifically from Meaty that persuaded me to post what I did (and whatever you may believe I didn't make it lightly or without thinking it through first):



Without wishing to state the obvious, there's a pretty big 'stuff that humans tend to do' thing missing from the list, and that interested me.

I'm not suggesting that Meaty attempts to procreate at the earliest possible opportunity, but I was wondering if it was on the radar for him and his partner, any long term plans in that direction, etc.

That's all (and indeed is why I ended my first post with the 'Your Mileage May Vary' comment)

It absolutely isn't, for either of us. We can just about tolerate an afternoon with her niece (5) and nephew (2) and she's usually the one who makes an excuse for us to leave first, not me!

Thinking about this comment, I saw this xkcd:


Then, as if to illustrate, I was at the AS'DA'S just now. A family of six returned to their minivan in the parking spot next to mine. Eldest children (brother and sister 8 or 9 years old each) began running circuits around the car arguing about which of them was going in the front. Mom was strapping youngest (2) into his car seat and shouting at the kids to get into the damn car. Dad had middle son (3, maybe 4) sitting on his left arm, clinging to his head, as Dad tried to load the groceries one handed, one bag at a time, into the car.

Then there was me. I put my cargo (case of beer, spirits, hot sauce and a loaf of bread) into my sporty coupe and drove home to my waiting missus, where I also have a motorcycle and an Xbox and there are no Cheerios ground into the carpets and it's peaceful and quiet unless I want to play loud music or games.



I appreciate the thought, Atrocity, and understand what you're getting at, but it's definitely not for us.

I think the meme that couples who don't want kids are inevitably in some way selfish or unfulfilled or stunted as people is some of the most irritatingly shallow judgemental claptrap I've ever encountered.

So tired....

LOLZ are you like a vegetablist who doesn't like bacon or something nyan?!!

That's fine Meaty and thanks for taking the time to make a measured reply.

I was genuinely curious as to how you and Mrs Meaty were thinking with regards to children (I did read the thread properly before making my first post), and now I know

I don't believe that's what I've actually said, though.

I love kids, but I couldn't manage a whole one.

I don't believe I said that's what you said. I didn't read your posts. I was commenting generally.

Must. Resist.

You're all short on sleepless nights and puke stains, certainly.

I think the prevailing sentiment in the thread is more that having kids is a waste of money and makes you inherently less happy, which is equally silly.

I think everyone with a brain can accept that there are good sides and bad sides to both situations, and whichever people choose, good on them.

Unless they're benefit scroungers, obv

Mrs Meaty says: "People often ask me 'why haven't you had children? You don't like them? Well, why not have one anyway and you might grow to like them!'. Fine, and I'll throw you down the stairs. You didn't like it? I'll keep doing it anyway, maybe you'll learn to like it!"

Earlier on I couldn't get to the fridge to get my Mountain Dew so I started stabbing myself in the thigh instead.

It fucking isn't.

Kids are amazing and bloody hard work.

A few years ago (when we were moving from Exeter to Ivybridge) we looked at all sorts of possibilites of where to move to, and one of them was abroad.

My criteria was somewhere where they spoke English, with a good quality of life, that's not America, Pauline didn't want Oz, SA or NZ, so that left Canada.

So we looked into that, and although initially looking very good, we decided it was too much hassle given that we had 3 kids (at the time)

We might have persued it if we had been a childless couple, but then I don't think we would have left London in 2000 if we were childless...

I guess we might not have even moved in with each other if we were childless (When Pauline got pregnant with Owen, I was still living at home with my parents, and she lived in a bedsit!)

Malc

I enjoy capturing small children and setting them on fire as punishment for stealing pick'n'mix. I'd be a great parent.

It fucking isn't.[/quote]

Which part are you disagreeing with?

The prevailing sentiment part I assume.

I assumed the part about it being equally silly

Only one way to find out...

Keep guessing?

FIGHT!

Having children: EASY or HARD?

I don't have a kid and don't have any immediate/long/forever term plans to have one, but I'd side on "EASY" based purely on the current billions of people. Having a good, fun job with a good, fun life is very hard to do, given the amount of people you see who hate both of those aspects. (Wether or not they have kids). So to those people who have "made it" and not have kids, I say good on ya.

Making kids: Easy and fun
Raising kids: Not so Easy, but still fun (mostly)

Malc

This house thinks that having kids is a waste of money and makes you inherently less happy.

AE mentioned kids. Every single post about them between his and mine a damn site closer to that mindset than the one Gaywood suggested.

I'm pretty much with AE on this, though of course, what works for me isn't going to be the same as anyone else.

I famously love work and spend vast amounts of my time doing it, but ultimately, it isn't how I define my life? When I think back to myself of the things I've achieved, it's helping to raise two wholesome, beautiful young women who are themselves amazing parents, not writing some bloody report or whatever, or earning money. Having kids was the last thing on my mind as a 28 year old hedonist, but Fate can throw a few curveballs at you and you find yourself on the other side as a totally different person.

Well put cavey.

If you're going to work, it should be for something you find satisfying and fulfilling.

I want the four years I've spent investigating late trains to be a stupid story I tell people about a past chapter of my life. It pays well but it's not satisfying or fulfilling because I don't see anyone deserving getting any benefit from doing it. (my bank balance and things resulting from it are a given and don't count there)

What?
Allow me to make it clearer: Kids suck.

In what way?

Kids Suck everything. With their mouths.

You were asked which part you disagreed with, and said the part about people thinking kids suck, you imbecile.

This is a lovely mangly sentence. I could've wrut that.

It is missing an 'are'.

I assumed you were advocating digging for minerals of some kind.

Well, I have nothing against such activities.