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 Post subject: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 13:26 

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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I went to learnpython.org and absent mindedly clicked the tutorial to see what it was like. Lesson 1 - change the word "goodbye" to the word "hello", then click run. Anyone with a word processor can do this lesson. So far, so good.

Lesson 2:

Quote:
Variables and Types

Python is completely object oriented, and not "statically typed". You do not need to declare variables before using them, or declare their type. Every variable in Python is an object, and therefore every object supports the following functions:

OK, what's an object, what's declaring, what are variables, what are functions? Are all objects variables? Lesson 2 and I'm already applying philosophy because I'm so confused.

help(object) - Shows information on how to use the object.

dir(object) - shows the internal structure of the object - all its methods and members.

This tutorial will go over a few basic types of variables.

Numbers
Python supports two types of numbers - integers and floating point numbers. (It also supports complex numbers, which will not be explained in this tutorial).

What's an integer? What's a floating point number?

To define an integer, use the following syntax:

myint = 7
To define a floating point number, you may use one of the following notations:

myfloat = 7.0
myfloat = float(7)
Strings
Strings are defined either with a single quote or a double quotes.



mystring = 'hello'
mystring = "hello"
The difference between the two is that using double quotes makes it easy to include apostrophes (whereas these would terminate the string if using single quotes)

mystring = "Don't worry about apostrophes"
There are additional variations on defining strings that make it easier to include things such as carriage returns, backslashes and Unicode characters. These are beyond the scope of this tutorial, but are covered in the Python documentation.

Simple operators can be executed on numbers and strings:

one = 1
two = 2
three = one + two

hello = "hello"
world = "world"
helloworld = hello + " " + world
Mixing operators between numbers and strings is not supported:

# This will not work!
print one + two + hello
Exercise
The target of this exercise is to create a string, an integer, and a floating point number. The string should be named mystring and should contain the word "hello". The floating point number should be named myfloat and should contain the number 10, and the integer should be named myint and should contain the number 20.


As per the red, that's one fucker of a learning curve. I think integers are 'whole numbers" i.e. 5, not 5.2. I am deriving from the use of function that its meaning is quite literal. This is the problem though - you could fathom this shit out eventually, but programming beginners guides should never be written by programmers, they should be written by teachers. And not programmers who became teachers either. The sad thing is for those of us with 'fuck all maths' being taught to program can really help with learning maths because it give us a useful, compelling reason to do some.

Anyone know of any sites that are good at explaining this stuff properly?


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 13:31 
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GovernmentYard wrote:
Anyone know of any sites that are good at explaining this stuff properly?


Yep.

http://www.codeacademy.com

It's Javascript rather than python, but it'll teach you the concepts that the python site above seems to be assuming you already know.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 13:34 
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What Cras said. CodeAcademy is awesome, and (based on that quote) that Python site is rubbish.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 13:47 

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Sorted.

I fancy a raspberry pi, see?


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 13:53 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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I had a play with this

http://rubykoans.com/

this week. Totally incomprehensible :D and this is coming from someone who wrote a few ruby scripts last year, so i'm not a total novice.
Programming courses need to be written by teachers, not programmers...


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 14:22 
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baron of techno

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You're quite right, GY - programming terminology is horrible and nondescriptive. I've been programming for 20 years and still glaze over when I read anything like that python introduction you quoted. Programming itself is generally quite easy - I use python at work for things, with no time for learning and it's easy to pick up. It's rarely got anything to do with maths though.

Raspberry Pi looks cool.
Something else which is cool and can be made to "do stuff" is the nanode - it's an arduino clone with built in ethernet and things. You can very quickly make it serve web pages with buttons on them, say, and wires attached to make the web interact with the real world.
I don't particularly like the arduino programming model but lots of novices do alright with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 14:27 
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kalmar wrote:
You can very quickly make it serve web pages with buttons on them, say, and wires attached to make the web interact with the real world.


*buys more webspace*

*orders more simuloids*

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 14:35 
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That Ruby Koans page looks ridiculously unsuitable for actually learning how to code. I'd agree with Code Academy, it looks friendly and it's popular enough that you'll be able to get help with it, plus there are a billion different things you can do with JS.

I'd say, once you've learnt a certain programming paradigm, all other similar languages are just a matter of learning the new syntax on the whole. Learning JS will help with Java or perl, but learning haskell or lisp will still need to be done pretty much from scratch.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 14:55 
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kalmar wrote:
You're quite right, GY - programming terminology is horrible and nondescriptive.


Really? You don't think that 'variable' and 'type' are at all descriptive of the actual concepts?


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 14:57 
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Bamba wrote:
kalmar wrote:
You're quite right, GY - programming terminology is horrible and nondescriptive.


Really? You don't think that 'variable' and 'type' are at all descriptive of the actual concepts?


I think they are excellently descriptive - but only really once you already know what they mean. Coming at them cold they're decidedly impenetrable.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 15:00 
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Craster wrote:
I think they are excellently descriptive - but only really once you already know what they mean. Coming at them cold they're decidedly impenetrable.

This is a microcosm of why learning to program is so hard. It's holistic knowledge; understanding almost any part of it requires a decent grasp of several other parts. It's hard to find a way in.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 15:23 
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Integer and float are probably things you should look up, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 15:32 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Craster wrote:
I think they are excellently descriptive - but only really once you already know what they mean. Coming at them cold they're decidedly impenetrable.

This is a microcosm of why learning to program is so hard. It's holistic knowledge; understanding almost any part of it requires a decent grasp of several other parts. It's hard to find a way in.


If my uni course is anything to do with it, the learning process is "oh fuck, we forgot you guys don't actually know anything about code, here go read this book on C for the next week, we'll start C++ on monday"


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 16:04 
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Grim... wrote:
Integer and float are probably things you should look up, though.



Those are easy, at least they describe an easy to grasp, discrete thing, rather than a nebulous concept. "Prototype" is a particularly annoying one.

I suppose it doesn't help that modern languages hide all the actual workings and leave you to battle with concepts without anything to tie it to.

I mean, it's pretty easy to explain what an integer is, how it's represented in memory and what the different sizes are called in C. In python? Who knows when you're even dealing with a string or an integer, it doesn't seem to care!


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 16:15 
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Trooper wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Craster wrote:
I think they are excellently descriptive - but only really once you already know what they mean. Coming at them cold they're decidedly impenetrable.

This is a microcosm of why learning to program is so hard. It's holistic knowledge; understanding almost any part of it requires a decent grasp of several other parts. It's hard to find a way in.


If my uni course is anything to do with it, the learning process is "oh fuck, we forgot you guys don't actually know anything about code, here go read this book on C for the next week, we'll start C++ on monday"


Years ago, when I was doing some IT course, I'd done some BASIC, Pascal and DBase IV stuff. Then towards the end, I was due to learn some C. However, the tutor then went on his honeymoon and there was no-one around to cover him, so I was told to wander over the library, get a book on the subject and teach myself. What I actually do though was to get a book on the subject, skim over the first few bits and then wrote a fruit machine game in BASIC instead. Oops.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 18:26 
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You don't know what an integer is? :S

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 23:53 
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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 0:11 

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myp wrote:
You don't know what an integer is? :S


I'm willing to bet most educated first-worlders don't know what an integer is.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 0:19 
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GY is probably right. Think about it, how often does the word 'integer' come up if you're not specifically talking about programming languages or datatypes? Pretty sure it never has for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 0:28 
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This evening at supper, integer was mentioned no less than twelve times in discourse with the wife.

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Yeah, pretty much never. Still, you get taught what it means when you're taught fractions, no?

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 Post subject: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 0:41 
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baron of techno

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Yeah, it's a whole number. To be fair, you only have to be told that once, there's plenty more arcane shit than that.
Anything to do with OO for a start.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 0:43 
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Of everything in computing, OO is by light years the easiest to analogise, which helps a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:23 
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kalmar wrote:
Something else which is cool and can be made to "do stuff" is the nanode - it's an arduino clone with built in ethernet and things. You can very quickly make it serve web pages with buttons on them, say, and wires attached to make the web interact with the real world.
I don't particularly like the arduino programming model but lots of novices do alright with it.

I hadn't spotted that one before. Ta!


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:24 
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Wouldn't mind giving programming another go, always been a minor ambition of mine to do it properly TBH. Couldn't grasp the basics last time though. Wondering if it's something you have to be a natural at to stand a chance. (I'll admit that I'm shit at maths, for example.)


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:28 
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The bit of maths that crosses over with computing (barring some advanced algorithmic stuff) is just basic abstract reasoning. So it depends which bits of maths you suck at. So try the codeacademy link.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:36 
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We're always here to help, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:19 
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I am terrible at maths. Seem to do alright at coding though.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:19 
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Just dropping this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:22 
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What's this bit for exactly?

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:22 
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Craster wrote:
Of everything in computing, OO is by light years the easiest to analogise, which helps a lot.


I've always struggled terribly with OO but I imagine that's just because I've never really used it. When I was at uni Java was really just taking off so they briefly tried to teach us the concepts using C as that was language we had actually learned at the time. You could essentially fake it by structuring your code in a certain way but obviously C doesn't force any of the concepts so you'd have to be very disciplined to carry it off and it was just too late in the course for us to really wrap out heads around it given that it was rushed through as a purely academic exercise. And professionally the only language I've been steeped in is PL/SQL so that's never taught me any OO concepts. We do have a load of Java systems in my work but there's no way 'in' to it from my point of view (unlike database code which is visible to everyone with a login) so I can't really go digging around and teach myself it as I did with PL/SQL.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:28 
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GazChap wrote:


Ha, that Hello World example's fucking brilliant.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 14:31 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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Week 1 of codeacademy done.
355 score, 47 exercises done, 5 achievements :D
Took about 90 minutes in total I think.

Haven't actually learnt anything I didn't already know as such, but I didn't know the syntax for javascript so there is that.

It's pretty good, well structured and easy to use, and makes sense all the way through, so far...


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 0:21 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
So try the codeacademy link.

Gave that a go, couldn't manage it at all. :( Did struggle to 2/3s of the way through though. God knows how people manage to do that for a living...


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:52 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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471 score, 145 exercises, 14 achievements.

Still going well and doing a lesson whenever I have a free 10 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:55 
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What sort of things are you covering in the later lessons?

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:03 
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It's very slow going, 145 exercises in and this is the current course: http://www.codecademy.com/courses/primi ... ent-course which is basically a review of primitive data types.

It's taken you through the basic building blocks of programming (for loops, if else, switches, data types, variables, functions etc...) but as each lesson is written by different people, some are better than others.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:10 
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Fuck me, that is slow going :S

I guess if you're a complete novice that's what you want, though - better than suddenly hitting a wall.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:13 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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To be fair, 145 exercises is only about 3-4 hours in, they are very short :)


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 15:28 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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539 score 213 exercises 18 achievements.

That's the full course done, just the final BlackJack challenge to do now.
Significant jump in difficulty for the final module which was all about objects, methods, constructors etc..., but nothing vastly challenging.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 18:30 
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Hello!

Bit of an odd one this. I'm in no way learning to programme but keep finding myself in situations where I probably should.

However, I've come here instead. Y'see, I have an interview for a copywriting job at a big Linux-type company who I shall not name, and I wish to include some Python code in an ad I'm writing as a test for them.

Does anyone know what the Python code could (rather than would, I guess) be for dialling a contact called The Changes on a mobile?

Is it possible I could end up with something that looks like Ring("The Changes")?

I wouldn't would I? This is why advertising tossers shouldn't mix with logical programmers.

Not sure I've given any scope for anyone being able to offer any useful help, but I do hope everyone has a splendid saturday night!


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 13:30 
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Sadly not.

#phoneCallNumber">https://code.google.com/p/android-scrip ... CallNumber

So it'll be something like

Code:
droid.phoneCallNumber( 'content://com.android.contacts/contacts/thechanges' )


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 13:30 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Sadly not.

#phoneCallNumber">https://code.google.com/p/android-scrip ... CallNumber

So it'll be something like

Code:
droid.phoneCallNumber( 'content://com.android.contacts/contacts/thechanges' )


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 23:08 
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Prince of Fops

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Squirt wrote:
<null>


Ha, so i was slightly off then. Thank you for taking the time to humour me, much appreciated.

Seemed they liked what I did anyway so am being interviewed tomorrow. Linux is a character from Peanuts, yes?


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:34 
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Findus Fop wrote:
Squirt wrote:
<null>


Ha, so i was slightly off then. Thank you for taking the time to humour me, much appreciated.

Seemed they liked what I did anyway so am being interviewed tomorrow. Linux is a character from Peanuts, yes?


No, it's a species of Finnish Penguin.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 20:32 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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I am coding!

I'm writing some ruby code that works out the optimum buying pattern for commuting train tickets. In theory it will take in public holidays, weekends, your booked days off, working from home days etc... And tell you what days you should buy what ticket to get the cheapest deal over your timeframe you are looking at. I.e. when and on what date you should buy a daily instead of a weekly or a monthly.

It's all in the terminal at the moment, but it is all thoroughly exciting. Plan for tomorrow is to work out how to create an array and drop values into specific elements of the array. God bless google.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:52 
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Heavy Metal Tough Guy

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Do it, stick it on a web page and bung in an affiliate link to The Train Line ( ideally one that pre-populates everything ). Instant internet millionaire!


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:58 
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What-ho, chaps!

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If it precomputes journey breaking, then definitely.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:00 
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MrD wrote:
If it precomputes journey breaking, then definitely.

National Rail won't give you any money for that, as you're breaking their terms and conditions.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:03 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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I think people are getting a little advanced here.

Currently I run my ruby script and it tells me how much it costs for a year in dailies, weeklies, monthlies and a year season pass. Plus it tells me the date and time...


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 Post subject: Re: Learning to program?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:12 
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Trooper wrote:
Plus it tells me the date and time...

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