Be Excellent To Each Other

My missus is kicking up a bit of a stink about a tenancy agreement that she has to sign to live where I live at the moment.

I've already signed it, albeit a version of the agreement that's just in my name, this is a new agreement.

She (and her sister, who is a solicitor in employment law) have pointed out the following clauses in the agreement for me to raise with the letting agent as being potentially unreasonable. What are the resident BeEx lawyers opinion?

1) If they want to increase the rent, they have to give us one month notice. If we want to leave, we have to give them one month notice. So if they decide to put the rent up, we have to give notice on the same day to avoid being charged.

2) A clause stating that we would have to pay any expenses incurred by the landlord in drawing up/preparing a list of dilapidations etc. at the end of the tenancy.

3) A clause stating that at the end of the tenancy, any carpets in the property (just one) must be professionally cleaned at our expense.

4) A clause stating that we can't affix anything adhesive to the walls, including Blutak, without written consent from the landlord.

5) A clause stating that we must take reasonable precautions to prevent frost damage. Complaint with this bit is "what's reasonable?"

6) A restriction on holding any parties at the property at all.

7) A restriction on playing sound between the hours of 11pm and 8am if it can be heard outside the premises.

A requirement to mow the lawns every fortnight in growing season. Complaint here is that every fortnight is unreasonable, and that it should read "keep reasonably tidy" or similar.

9) A clause stating that they have to give only 8 hours notice to enter the property for the purposes of inspection or to carry out remedial work that we should have carried out etc. - complaint with this one is that the legal requirement is 24 hours notice.

Now, I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of these are quite reasonable, and many of the ones that aren't are unenforceable anyway (the 8 hours notice one, in particular) as they can't change your statutory rights in a contract. Consequently I have no qualms in signing it, the missus not so though.

Any thoughts, legal bods?

It all seems like fairly standard estate agent stuff that no landlord would actually enforce unless you pissed them off. For example the blutak one.

Yeah, that's basically what I've been trying to say - "The landlord hasn't come up with this stuff, it's just standard stuff!" but she won't have it.

I'd like to see then prove that you're having a party as opposed to having some friends round.

It's all well and good saying that it's standard stuff until something unexpected happens or you come to the end of the tenancy and want your deposit back. A lot of people probably don't want to think about that because you expect to live there for months and months but a little head ache now arguing about the terms can protect you later a year or do down the line. I think your missus is right to want to think about the eventualities now.

1) when can the rent be put up? When they feel like it with a months notice, and by how much? It should be linked somehow to the prevailing rates so they can't arbitrarily jack it up hundreds of pounds.

(I appreciate that it might actually say something about this in the agreement but it's worth thinking about)

2) I don't like this. This kind of stuff can be found in commercial leases* and is rarely found in residential tenancies unless it's a freaking massive place. You don't want them commissioning a report from one of their mates and charging you for the privilege.

Surely it's enough that the estate agent can come and take a list at the start and end of the tenancy. That'll be enough.

3) I don't like this either. How long is the tenancy? A year? Well a good hoovering should do the trick. A professional cleaner could cost around a hundred quid. And where's that coming out of? Your deposit. Fuck that.

4) What the? I would bother too much about this even though it's stupid.

5) Frost damage to what? The landlord should maintain the exterior - not you. If they want you to have the radiators on on the winter to stop the pipes freezing up then that's fine and you'll probably do that anyway. Anything else is too onerous.

6 & 7) meh

I fully agree with the missus here. Every two weeks? Get stuffed.

9) If it ain't right then it needs changing. Plus if you're arguing about the above stuff then I'd argue for a weeks notice too and possibly agree something in the middle.

It's clearly been drafted by a lawyer to give the landlord an easy ride. It's a buyers market so you should have the power to argue the toss over this crap and secure a nice new house to live in and not have to worry about whether you mowed your lawn enough.

(*I did a stint in Commercial Property a few years ago by the way)

That 8 hour thing is unlawful like. Is that really what it says? Query that one, wouldn't worry about the rest really.

Yeah don't worry about paying a professional cleaner. It's only money init.

I'd worry about it if I were genuinely expected to actually do it. But also, is it such a big deal to get a carpet steam cleaned for £30 or so after living somewhere for X years?

(Not sure where you're getting a hundred quid from for steam cleaning a single carpet. And let's not forget that more than one person lives there so the bill can be shared.)

Hell, if you really want to save money, just hire a steam cleaner for the day and do it yourself.

http://www.adreamclean.org/

£35 to 'professionally clean' 'a room'. Shared between two people? Hardly worth worrying about really. Apologies if my cavalier attitude to spending so much money is grating.

You just don't know how to stick it to the man in order to get 99% of your deposit back. #OccupyLettingAgents

I'd agree to remove the rent increase charge, but it is highly unlikely to happen. The 8 hours one isn't reasonable, but draw attention to it on the contract, and get it altered, it'll probably not come to any time when it will be of significance. The rest seem quote standard, with the exclusion of the 'parties' one, as Grim.. said, I'd bloody love to see the definition of 'party'. The cost of the inventory is standard, but often will be split between landlord and tenant. Professionally cleaning the carpets at your expense is entirely reasonable, especially having animals in the house.

The Blu Tack thing always amuses me as landlords usually don't mind you hammering a 2 inch metal spike into the wall, but object to a waxy smear.

Yeah, basically what I've said to her

Number 7 in my list is actually slightly incorrect, the wording of it on the agreement actually says that we can't use anything which generates sound between the hours of 11pm and 8am - at all, not just whether it can be heard.

That's obv. unreasonable.

Like... your mouth?

Lungs.

Seriously, I'd just ignore it. It was probably lazy drafting. What has more than likely happened is the letting agent went "Contract, um, OK" filled in the names at the top and pressed 'print'" and you've ended up with someone else's mad clauses as they were a teenage rock star or something.

I'm quite happy to ignore it, but MissChap is of the opinion that she flat out isn't going to sign something she doesn't agree with (which is fair enough, I guess!) so wants it changed.

Personally, I think this is just going to cause more hassle than it's worth and possibly sour the relationship with the landlord/agent.

The carpet thing is not reasonable - it's now a legal principle in tenancies that wear and tear must be accepted by the landlord.

8 hours is shit, standard is 24. No parties is ludicrous, especially without a definition. A built-in rent increase is standard, but normally says "no more often than once a year, to account for inflation."

I expect that the contract stipulates the deposit will be going into the government's bond system? Presumably it also does the "Here's your two month's notice expiring on the same day as the short term assurance" thing? Oh, yeah, they can't give less than two months notice, which is why they all do that thing now.

There's quite a lot of stuff in there that would make me walk away to be honest, on the principle that any agent or landlord trying to pull it will probably be a twat to deal with later. But then, the bastards collude meaning most contracts in the area will be much of a muchness.

Wear and tear is fine - massive shit stains are not. I think it's reasonable. Basically as long as you're not a cunt you should always be ok. Tenants are much more protected these days than they used to be.

The noise after 11pm, 8hrs notice and parties are the only ones I'd query. Everything else I wouldn't worry so much about - they are mainly so the agent has a comeback against tenants who have been massive twats.

But they're demanding a professional clean whatever, is the impression I get - that's what makes it unreasonable. There are always standard terms about taking out of the deposit to cover proper damage and left items.

Not if they are keeping pets in the house. That's the cost of allowing an animal to live there, I would have though.t

I must have missed the bit about there being pets involved? Tenancies I've had have been built around "no pets without written consent of the landlord"

Edit: I re-read and still can't see it, am I missing some context?

Gaz said he'd moved in with his cat, which was confused by her new surroundings, somewhere.

If you're renting a room, sure. If you're renting a flat, that's probably six rooms, and £210 is a bit different to £35.

Or one carpet, as Gaz has already mentioned.

You shut your whore mouth.

This^^

Plus for all we know that one carpet could run from his living room, dining room and up the stairs. Or summats.

And it's naive to think the letting agent will let you choose your own cleaner. More like they'll get their mate to do it and bill you a large amount before cleaning out your deposit.

Oh, it's Gazchap? Stupid christmas names.

I'd still think that should be an expense to be decided later than put in as a requirement. Where's the bit about the wallpaper and curtains the cat is likely to shred?

It's paranoid to expect they'll choose their mate. Everywhere I've rented I've been able to hire (or borrow) a steam cleaner and do it myself. Take your tin hat off for a second.

It's most likely, of course, that they won't do it at all, but still demand £100.

The first flat I lived in in Liverpool the cheeky fucker demanded money to clean the carpet blaming us, despite the fact the building had been a building site the entire year I was there, including repeated visits into our flat to alter/fix stuff by the muddy-footed builders. She never bastard offered to steam clean it for us after those occasions, oh no.

I suppose because I live in the real world where disputes occur, I'd be more cautious because of the horror stories im told frequently by my clients.

Letting agents can be lovely when they want you to move in but can quickly turn when it comes to talking money and you're tied down to one of their agreement that you laughed about as being silly when you signed it, but suddenly you're struggling to get your deposit back and need that money for something else because of those same silly terms.

The letting agents interests lie with the landlord.

Of course they do, and I've had disputes before, but they've been settled in a reasonable and amicable matter. Like I said, if you're twatty tenants then you'll get treated accordingly. Unless you use real cowboys, you should be fine. Like I said, tenants are protected much more now then they ever have been.

On that basis you'd accept whatever onerous and unreasonable terms were shoved under your nose. It's a frankly ridiculous way to conduct yourself when renting property.

Of course not - I've already said what I'd query above. Making sure a carpet is clean is not something that should be overly concerning, unless you're a complete filthmeister.

The one carpet runs from the bottom of the stairs to the top of the stairs, for reference. And it's a similar pattern to this: so I'd be amazed if they can even see any stains on it.

You can judge it at the time of moving out whether it needs it or not. There's no way they can tell if it's been professionally cleaned or not, and if there's nothing in the contract saying they insist on using a preferred supplier then you can get away with doing it yourself. I wouldn't fret over it, there are other things in that contract that deserve your attention.

To be honest, every contract for letting I've had as an adult has included the 'professional cleaning' clause. In fact, we've some Easten European lass cleaning our old flat today for this very reason. We got around the steam cleaning of carpets because they were tatty when we moved in, so I said they were going to be replaced anyway, so why bother cleaning them?

The agents are being arses about one thing though. The light fitting in the bathroom fell out an smashed (well, the glass cover did). It still worked fine sans cover, so I wasn't too bothered. I am sure I mentioned it to the agent on the phone, aaaages ago, but she denies knowledge of this and says there's no email record of it (there's no record of a lot of stuff that they did, though). So she wants to charge us 150 quid to get an electrician to buy and fit a new light. I said GTFF and that it was just the glass case, buy a new one.

At the moment she is still planning on charging me 150 quid and I am planning on disputing this. Thoughts?

Buy a new glass case and fit it yourself? If you have no written record of your previous conversation it'll be difficult to prove it. I'd still dispute it if the light works though.

It works fine. Can't fit it ourselves as it is a bathroom electrical thingy so needs to be fitted by a qualified person. I say we didn't break it, so don't need to fix it. Imagine if it had fallen on our baby, etc.

Also, it's only the case that's broken. Her not remembering what case it was isn't our fault.

If it wasn't accidental damage then you should dispute it, but it'll be tricky proving you didn't break it. Good luck!

I never realised you could get stereogram carpets.

Estate agents are fucking, fucking bastards. I've never met one that didn't eventually turn nasty the moment you asked them to do anything but sit on their lazy, overpaid, money-for-old-rope arses.

I used to pay an agent an absurd 10%+VAT of the rent for managing my house, and all they did was ring me whenever the tenants had a question and repeat it to me. The only thing they were good for was arranging for an (expensive) 'contractor' to go out and fix things on rare occasions. Since you were paying they never made any attempt to make it cheap. They were supposed to take any costs like that out of their rent (the rent which they held for a week before they paid it to me), but started getting lazy and sent me bills directly asking me to pay them myself. After they got a contractor out to perform some work without my permission and then tried to make me pay it, I refused and gave them notice. They offered to release me from the notice period early. Hoo-fucking-raa.

I then asked for the agent to hand my tenant's deposit to me, so I could put it in my own deposit protection scheme, as I really didn't want them having any involvement in it. They tried to insist they needed the tenants permission to release it to me (they don't), and then tried to tell me the tenants had refused the transfer. They only gave me the deposit back after I threatened legal action. Their reason for wanting to keep it was evidentl - agents use a profit-making deposit scheme that earns them a tidy amount of interest, so naturally they'd want to 'manage' the deposit for me for as long as possible.

Then it transpired they hadn't been reporting a load of problems that the tenants were complaining about, instead telling them I was merely refusing their (entirely reasonable) requests, so when I eventually met my tenants they were surprised to find out I wasn't a naysaying evil bastard. It then also transpired that the agent had told them a load of fucking shit about how transferring the deposit to me would be 'unsafe' and 'risky', which is why they obviously refused to give permission. All deposits in England (and soon Scotland) have to be protected by law, and tenants must be provided with their deposit protection number within 10 days of the tenancy start. Should it turn out that your deposit is not protected, you can take your landlord to court and get 3x your deposit back in fines. The agent knew there was no risk, they were just greedy, lying, fucking arseholes.

Unless my tenants want to knock down walls, generally I say yes to whatever they ask for, like redecorating or doing something as simple as putting up a picture. There's no need to be a dick about these things. A pin-prick in the wall can be sorted with the tiniest amount of filler if it comes to it. Also if my tenants have lived there a few years and there's things like scuffs on the walls and scratches on the worktop, that's just reasonable wear. Unless they have smeared shit all over the walls they'll just get it all back without quibble.

Just on the cleaning - they may well insist on that, and it may well be more than £35. It was for us. Moved out of a flat in Brighton, been there 7 months and they charged over £100 for the pro steam clean. Now it wasn't the cleanest in the world even after only 7 months, but that's due to it being a basement flat. So if you can challenge that one that might save you grief.

First time I moved out of a place we were charged, amongst other, £40 because we "stole" the coffee table (it was our coffee table) and £40 because [i"]the curtains [b]look[\b]" missing[\i]."

Despite kicking up a huge fuss we never got that money back. So, yeah, im a lot more suspicious now.

Letting agent has modified the agreement as per all of our requests. The "8 hours notice" was a typo, should have been "48 hours notice"... hmm...

Other than that, quite happy with the result.

YAY!

Do you still have to steam clean?

Yeah, did you get all 9 things sorted? What did you manage to negotiate?

We need details!

1) If they want to increase the rent, they have to give us one month notice. If we want to leave, we have to give them one month notice. So if they decide to put the rent up, we have to give notice on the same day to avoid being charged.

The rent is guaranteed not to go up for 12 months.

2) A clause stating that we would have to pay any expenses incurred by the landlord in drawing up/preparing a list of dilapidations etc. at the end of the tenancy.

This has been removed.

3) A clause stating that at the end of the tenancy, any carpets in the property (just one) must be professionally cleaned at our expense.

Amended to say this is no longer required as long as they're in the same condition when we leave.

4) A clause stating that we can't affix anything adhesive to the walls, including Blutak, without written consent from the landlord.

Allowed now, but any marks left on the wall will require redecoration.

5) A clause stating that we must take reasonable precautions to prevent frost damage. Complaint with this bit is "what's reasonable?"

Just a list of common sense things like covering exterior taps, making sure the pipes don't freeze over etc.

6) A restriction on holding any parties at the property at all.

Amended to read that parties must be controlled and relatively quiet, and not cause disturbances to neighbours.

7) A restriction on playing sound between the hours of 11pm and 8am if it can be heard outside the premises.

This one now reads like this, rather than the blanket ban on sound between those hours.

A requirement to mow the lawns every fortnight in growing season. Complaint here is that every fortnight is unreasonable, and that it should read "keep reasonably tidy" or similar.

Changed to read as we requested.

9) A clause stating that they have to give only 8 hours notice to enter the property for the purposes of inspection or to carry out remedial work that we should have carried out etc. - complaint with this one is that the legal requirement is 24 hours notice.

Now 48 hours.

Good work!

If nothing else, this thread has reminded me to wrap my outside tap up.