Be Excellent To Each Other

So, I was listening to Today on the way in to work this morning, as always, and wee Michael Gove was on. He was talking about the apparently pointless vote they had last night that apparently Cameron was still damaged by having his backbenchers rebel on. Apparently.

It seems the Tories don’t like the EU much. A significant number of the Tory backbenchers voted in favour of a referendum on leaving the EU completely, which Gove claimed was the same as Cameron wanting to bring powers back from the EU at some point in the future. According to Gove all they disagree on is tactics. Heh.

Anyway. When pressed by Humphries, Gove said that the Tories were going to try to “get power back to the UK” on things like employment law, as the EU is telling us how we can employ people, who we can employ and how long they can work. I think what he meant was that he wants specific regulations and directives to not apply in the UK. If they were bringing powers back to the UK, they would have to renegotiate the various treaties to take the UK out of the competencies of the Council and Parliament to legislate for in certain subject areas at any point ever (such as employment law), which I can’t see ever happening. Why would the other 26 nation states agree to treaty changes which favour only the UK?

So, besides Gove being confused as to how the EU works, he got me thinking about what it is that the Tories dislike so much about the EU. His non-specific specific examples of laws they want repealed would include things like TUPE, the Working Time Directive, and a host of stuff to do with unfair dismissals, discrimination, redundancy and whatnot. These are all things that protect the workers, and to get rid of them would make life easier for the employers at the expense of the workers. Granted, it wouldn’t be a return to the bad old days of a rich man in a hat and a moustache cackling evilly as his minions whip the poor orphan workers because they’re not shovelling poo with their hands quickly enough. But it still wouldn’t be great for the average joe. But it would be great for the Tories’ mates in the CBI and FSB* and so on.

Gove claims these things are holding back UK business. But hang on, all of these evil EU-mandated laws that prevent us from being competitive apply equally (or in some cases more restrictively on the employers) in the rest of the EU. They all seem to be getting on swimmingly despite treating their employees like human beings. Germany in particular. So is it something peculiar to the UK that means we can’t run our businesses properly unless these laws are repealed?

And (and I apologise for starting a sentence with a conjunction. And following one conjunction with another there. And starting another sentence with a conjunction. And another! etc) why is it only the UK that’s ever complaining about the EU? I’m not aware of other EU countries having big stompy hissy fits about being made to be part of the EU. Why is it so apparently inimical only to the British way of life – or more particularly our way of business?

In essence, the majority of what the EU does in terms of legislation (I’m ignoring the Euro and central bank side of things here) is either about protecting consumers, employees or just people generally (be it in terms of privacy, environmental issues or whatever). But for some reason this is seen as a bad thing by the average person for whom all of these things are a benefit. We in the UK don’t pass horrible, nasty laws like that. We just pass wholesome, stiff-upper lipped, moral laws like detention without trial or control orders.

Why does the public support the idea that the EU is a bad thing? Are they that blinded by the nonsense spouted by the Mail and the Sun et al about straight bananas and “elf and safety gone mad” to understand that the majority of the laws passed in the UK in recent years which are beneficial to workers or consumers originate in the EU? Surely the point of government is to govern for the people, not the legal entities which exist only on bits of paper in Companies House. But no, whether due to the idea of ‘orrible forrins passing laws which they force us to benefit from, or the misinformation form the media and government, or just what the bloke down the pub told them, the British people seem to be in favour of the idea of handing the corporate world bigger and bigger dildos to plough them up the arse with.




*FSB. Heh. It’s like any time Robert Peston is on about the banking crisis in Europe, I chuckle to myself about the involvement of the English Cricket Board in the Eurozone bailouts. Simple things, eh?

Yes.

Well, quite.

And given the tendency for people to vote against their own interests, shouldn't we just do away with democracy? It's too good for us, and we clearly don't understand how it works.

Oh, AND ANOTHER THING. I get hugely fed up with people whinging about how it’s a load of people in Brussels legislating for our country, and a load of people we don’t vote for get to make decisions about us (i.e. the MEPs from the rest of the EU).

Well, how’s that different to what goes on in the UK at the moment? I vote for one local representative, who then won’t get elected. So the guy I didn’t vote for goes to Westminster to make decisions about the country which affect me, along with 600 and something other people I didn’t vote for and who live in areas vastly different to mine, who are all in any event passing laws to make their party popular with 4,000 people in Worcestershire. How is that different to the EU? We’re just exchanging one remote set of politicians for another. At least the EU Parliament doesn’t play to the floating voters.


Should I have done a thread about travellers instead?

I think the current middleground state of affairs isn't great. The single currency has massive flaws - as ably demonstrated by countries not being able to control their interest rates, or make use of quantative easing etc. Regarding laws, I think it's a twofold problem. Firstly, it comes across as giving up sovereignty, and the public don't like that. Secondly, the media don't report on European politics. What were the last 5 major debates or policy decisions made in the European Parliament? Any idea, I don't have a clue. And that's what gives the impression of remote people in Brussels secretly legislating for the UK.

I think a federal Europe is inevitable. I think a non-federal Europe with a single currency is a painful growing stage that needs to be got past quickly.

Well, that’s more a problem for them than us. Of course the only possible solution is fiscal union, and I think we’ll see a move that way pretty soon. Which may or may not work.

Yeah – see my AND ANOTHER THING post above. I think this is a silly thing for the public to get upset about. They already have fuck all control over what happens in the UK. But this is back to the public not knowing about the stuff they’re whinging about, which is probably the major issue with the EU, as per:


Good point. There is stuff in the international pages of the newspapers, but only grown up newspapers like the Times, Telegraph or Guardian. Even then the coverage isn’t particularly great.



Yeah, I agree. That said, in an ideal world people should take the time to educate themselves rather than just rely on what they read in the Mail. But I know that even otherwise intelligent people will do exactly that latter thing – my parents being classic examples.



Agreed.

I think it's far better to be in than out. The EU does provide a handy scapegoat for people to duck tricky questions by saying "EU regulations, health and safety, not my fault" and i suspect this card is played an awful lot. I'm not too keen on being in the Euro, though, as the strength of onc currency spread across wildy differing state levels of wealth wouldn't work in the favor of the UK. Being able to cross borders and work without a permit in any EU country is awesomesauce, and should be encouraged, as are many other things. I'm all for it, and pleassed that we have put this stupid referendum off for a while. No good ever came of a country going off on its own adventures.

Mumsnet are also discussing this.

I think Scotland should be "in".

Mali, are you seriously spending your time on Mumsnet now? It'd be bad enough (if expected) posting a link to some Cornishmen arguing about Cornwall being in the EU in their own right rather than being oppressed by the grockles. But [i]Mumsnet?[/] Have your balls not only retracted but actually turned into ovaries?

It is like staring into the eye of terror.

Abundant worship of the King Hell Lizard yes?

You know those horror films, where Kid A says "Mommy said that if I don't be good, the bogey man will get me"? Well, in Mumsnet, Kid A says that, and mumsnet says "YES IT WILL AND DEVOUR THE WORLD IN A SINGLE BREATH AS I READ IT ON FACEBOOK".

I love the argument we should be like Norway—which abides by the majority of EU law anyway but gets no say on any of it. Wow. Sounds great.

Err, I really don't think that's how it works.

That's what a bunch of Tories have been suggesting - that we leave the EU but stay in the free trade area, or whatever it's called, which would mean exactly what Craig has said.

EFTA, you mean? That's hardly the same as "abiding by the majority of EU law".

Heh. True.

Aye, they only have to enact the stuff that's relevant to trade & that. Which makes sense.

Ah, OK, it's probably referring to this:
"The non EU members of the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) have agreed to enact legislation similar to that passed in the EU in the areas of social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics."

I still see it as being largely up to them to choose which rules to adopt. And given that a lot of them are pretty progressive and sensible, why not...

It's still shite, though - you have to abide by all the bobbins on tariffs or whatever, but have no say in it, and can get royally shafted by France (who will certainly do just that given the chance).
EDIT - Kalmar - oh, yeah, could be.

Do we really have a much scummier and unobjective press than the rest of Europe? I'm not really familiar with the rest of the continent in that respect. That would explain in part why the UK seems more intrinsically anti-Europe than all the other member states. I also think the fact that we used to have an Empire that ruled the seas across the globe makes us naturally proud and opposed to being "dictated" to regardless of what is in our best interests.

Well, depends if Europe's press are owned by an Australian who switched nationalities for tax purposes, two libel addicts hiding in the Channel Islands, an admirer of fascism who gathered a lovechild and is another tax exile and finally a porn baron.

i like the EU, working in lots of eu-funded projects* and seeing opportunities arise which wouldn't have been ,are other wise, lessons learned from each other.. this whole anti-eu thing is so based on a weird projection of what the eu actually is...


* http://www.civitas.eu

I thought this showed how aside from a vote at election time we have fuck all say in anything
1. 100,000 people sign an online petition so forcing MP’s to debate this
2. A vote is organised
3. Cameron gets his level 3 whip (or whatever it’s called) and tells them all then better vote the way he wants it

I have no idea if being in Europe is a good thing or not, I suppose if there was vote for the public I would look into it more.

It's pretty clear the UK's probably better off out of the Euro, but I haven't seen a single convincing argument as to why we shouldn't be in the EU. Anyone know of any?

All the forrins!

Frankly, though, even if the petition did force a referendum, we'd still have no power. The media would, given that they would effectively craft enough people to think whatever they wanted.

One of the big problems when discussing the EU is just how horribly complicated the organisation is. Say there's an issue you feel strongly about - firstly, is it reserved for the member states, is it the sole responsibility of the EU, or is it shared?

Now, who do you write to/lobby/throw custard over? The Commission? The Parliament? The heads of the 27 nations? Say the decision has already been taken, and is, to you, quite clearly bonkers. We spent a lot of time a couple of years ago laughing at how incompetent Jacqui Smith was: are the EU commissioners competent in their roles? Do we know? Do we care? How can we ridicule and throw them out? Good governance requires that everyone know the lines of accountability, so we know who to blame. And when it comes to European matters, it just isn't clear at times.

It really doesn't help matters that the Treaties are more or less incomprehensible to the public. One of the good things about the EU Constitution was at least it was written in language that could be understood (and yes, I'm the type who reads constitutions for fun).

Personally, I think the best thing that has happened to the continent in recent years has been the single market and the free movement of goods and people. Whatever happens, it would be a Bad Thing to see borders going back up across Europe.

So, the Eurozone, and consequently the whole edifice of capitalism, is about to collapse because of Berlusconi, and we haven't mentioned it here? Come on, Beex, for shame!

You just did.

I'd like someone else to raise political stuff from time to time. I lament the passing of Cavey and the attedannt lack of Peter St John. There's only so much of your mum I can stand.

/WTB

I really more a reactionary when it comes to political posts. I certainly don't lam(STOP THAT - Drahma Ed)

It isn't just Berlusconi. Greece and Ireland had a metric fuckton to do with it as well.

Like the NI/Murdoch enquiry?

Half a dozen one sentence posts in the last month, or something like that.

the fire has gone from the political discourse here.

Well, Greece certainly does. I think everyone has just about forgotten that Ireland is even in the eurozone, let alone that it had a crisis recently.

However, Italy, the world's 8th largest economy, going titsup? That's huge, man.

Hold on, Greece, Italy, Ireland... possibly Spain? It's these bloody catholics, isn't it? I knew it!

Forget about Euro vs. not-Euro. It's fiscally responsible Protestants vs. cash-splurging Catholics. I better go and find some of them to burn, so they learn a lesson.

*Leans out of window, spies a be-masked Occupy rally*

Ahh! There's some!

It's somewhat worrisome, at the very least.

As long as it keeps interest rates down, I'm all for it. Who's next?

Apart from the news today that mortgage and loan rates are increasing due to the crisis (ignore base rate, it's libor which determines mortgage rates, which itself is determined with base being one element) it is indeed super ace best that interest rates aren't increasing.

Unless you're on a tracker, of course.

Well yes. I thought that myp was currently on a fix though.

So the market is concerned that Italy can't pay its debts, so they raise interest rates for Italy, which means it can't pay its debts...

Have I got it right?

We were on a two year tracker initially. Once that expired we moved to SVR, as when we asked what our remortgage options were NatWest laughed in our faces.

This happened to us too. However, as our house value recovered and the mortgage came down, we got to the point that we could remortgage to a new rate. However, they then laughed in my face for being newly self employed instead.

SVR? Ouch. 5 year fixed for the Paz household.

You do realise it's ridiculously low, right? We're paying £150 PCM less than when we took out our tracker.

Tracker at 0.9% above base for me.

Really? Shows what I know, or how much I've cared for the last 3 years. Still, we'll (hopefully) be moving in the next 6 months so I'd best get back up to speed.

Current potential profit on house.... £2k. Woop!

That's not quite how it works. Basically 'the market' is saying "Your debt is risky as shit, there's no way we're investing unless you make it worth our while". So Italy are increasing the yield on their short term bonds to get people to actually buy any, so they have the money to pay off the people who bought their short term bonds last year. And their longer term bonds 5/10 years ago.

As a point of reference, yield on a 1-year Italian Government bond is (I think) 7%. Yield on a 1-year UK Government bond is 0.5%.

If that looks like an ever worsening circle, that's because it is. If it looks like withdrawing cash on a credit card to pay your mortgage, that's because it's exactly like that.