Be Excellent To Each Other

I am also disappointed by the lack of Vox-Pops with rioters ala 1960's BBC News.

"Excuse me, but are you a rioter?"

"Yes I am."

"Ah, very good. And have you been rioting long?"

"Since about half past five."

"It seems very popular. But is this a passing fad of the hair people, or do you think it's a new contribution of the future of Britain's youth?"

*Puts down metal pole and can of Stella.*

"I think it's somewhat a mixture of both. I understand that being from our parent's generation our ways must seem strange, much like our music and our fashions, but you should realise that is simply the brief stage of a painful metamorphosis of a young society into a new social structure which adheres to a different value set."

"So the Ship of Britain, back on course?"

"Absolutely."

"Thanks. Back to the studio."

*Rioter nods, picks up metal pole and throws it through a window, glugs from Stella and burps obscenely.*

A fair few commentators are making a song and dance about the people involved being mostly very young, early teens even.

I have long held a pet theory that most of the world's social problems can be traced back to shitty parenting. It's hard not to think about that now.

I totally agree.
But who's fault is it that they're shitty parents - is it their parents?

Oh, that's the thing, I don't claim to have the answer as to how that came about, nor what, practically speaking, can be done about it.

I also don't want to just do the lazy cop-out of blaming one amorphous group of people and leaving it at that, because that's no use to anyone. It's something I need to give a lot more thought, though, because the older I get, the more it seems to be true.

Cut to Adam & Eve, throwing a big traffic cone at God's Tree of Knowledge.

God: "OI!"

Serious, genuine, would-actually-like-to-know question:

What the fuck are the police actually doing? It's like some weird reversal of the Egypt thing. Here, the police are (for once) playing nice and farting about as dickheads indiscriminately smash london; there, the police went lethal on peaceful, legitimate protestors.

Are they doing it on purpose? Let the people get nice and scared so they can swoop in and save the day? Are they just completely outnumbered? Are they being led by morons? I really want to know, there's no clear picture of what's actually happening. The bloody Tahrir square lot got about 50 times as much first-hand footage as we're getting on this, and their country was under a total communications lockdown.

The police here are currently massively outnumbered by people who would consider it a badge of honour to put one of them in the hospital or worse. The lack of footage is down to the looters chasing off cameramen and breaking the equipment if they catch them - Sky news were attacked earlier and people have had mobiles stomped on. I would suspect that the news helicopters have had to land because the police need the airspace. Firemen couldn't get near any buildings till the mob had moved on, hence the massive building jumping blazes. Only way this will be sorted out is if they bring in the army.

My mate in Hackney is shitting himself. Shouting and explosion noises he says, like fireworks or similar. Lots and lots of thug types milling about and walking past his window. Police riot vans occasionally zip past but don't stay and do anything. He won't sleep out of fear and even has improvised defensive weapons at the ready.

Not fucking good. I don't know why these cunts are being cunts. Get the army in, or whoever, and mow them down. Ponder the reasons after the threat is removed.

http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

Getting the army in may not be a very good idea. Not yet, anyway. It's a last resort and should be treated as such.


...

I can hear a lot of sirens. Just passing through, I think.

I don't want to think about what will come to light when this disperses. Just imagine what's been going on in the middle of these crowds of violent, drunk, horny teenagers who've just spent hours getting away with asbsolutely anything they want.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm really fucking wrong, but I'm dreading what will come out over the next few days.

I've just remembered that the first idea I had for a book, many years ago, that I took seriously enough to realise I wanted to write novels, was one I radically changed because the original ending - a riot of pissed off schoolkids - seemed too far fetched.

Ooh er.

I hear you SA. You're probably not wrong. When you're in the process of breaking one law, breaking another probably seems very easy. Christ.

BBC corrected it, this is the Sony distribution centre.

http://yfrog.com/0wtduz

A handful of cops charged by a mob. Jesus christ.

"holy fucking hell are you fucking kidding me"

Laurie Penny makes some significant points:

for the love of god someone edit in that missing /

[quote="Decca"]for the love of god someone edit in that missing /[quote]

Done.

It irritates me far too much that "prayforlondon" has been at the top of the tag list all night. Fuck off, you sanctimonious arsenobs.

Not the bull

Seriously just get the army in and start shooting the little oiks. As soon as they realise the army aren't messing around they'll stop.

If that is the same person I'm thinking of, she'll be making shit up again.

The irony of someone who lives in a tax haven opining on the inequity of the widening gap between rich and poor is amusing.

Anyway, I'm finding this very hard to explain to the kids, as they're only 4 1/2 and 3 but bright enough to pick up on what they're seeing. At least their first response was to describe the rioters as naughty and say that the police should take them away. I'm sticking with "they're very naughty men", rather than trying to explain any supposed complexities at this point.

Not sure if picked up here - but this spread to Bristol last night as well.

This whole thing is getting quite scary. How's this going to end? Curfews and martial law? You can bet your arse after the embarrassment of the comparison of riots in Tottenham and Cameron sipping espressos in Tuscany he's going to feel the need to act the hard man. TOUGH ON LOOTING AND TOUGH ON THE CAUSES OF LOOTING etc. and I can only see that making matters worse - if people feel oppressed by the state, anything that looks like cracking down on communities generally rather than just the specific individuals concerned is going to provoke even bigger problems.

Oh - Mali - saw on the news this morning that the police were actually driving armoured cars towards groups of rioters at 50mph to disperse them. Worked, too.

On mobile, so can't edit but that is twice now that Laurie Penny has found someone in the middle of a riot able to break off from what they are doing and deliver an eloquent and perfectly apt message to society.

She is becoming the Liz Jones of the Left.

Them's my boys.

I think we can assume there's a news blackout.

Stuff that kicked off in Nottingham last night.

To be honest, at this point the police have lost control by simple weight of numbers of the scum, so I have a lot of sympathy for residents prepared to defend their neighbourhood.

The whole thing just makes me sick.

Insurance doesn't usually cover civil disturbance, does it?

On Twitter, Abbott is guaging support for a curfew in parts of inner London.

Jesus. What shitty little people we have to share a country with.

London based forumites, are you going to work today?

Working from home today as planned, if I wasn't I would be going in.

Yep. Life goes on. Although I probably have to cancel my pub night tonight

Despite me living in Lewisham, someone from Kent has already called in as unable to get to the office. Bull-Shit.

Yeah. The buses are running again, and I can't see riots happening in the same places tonight.

Yeah. Got plans to go out tomorrow night and Thursday too, which this better not wreck.

I bet the yobs are kicking themselves, they can't watch the footy on their new HD TV tonight...

(Please note: none of this is backed up with facts. It's based of observations from the town of my birth, Middlesbrough. Pure opinion from start to finish)

In my opinion, these massive social problems can be traced back to the decline of heavy industry in this country. When people around my dad's age (early 60's) were leaving school, they were safe in the knowledge that they could get a job. It'd be nasty, dirty, hard, back-breaking work, but it would pay a wage and put food on the table and pints in their hands. The sort of man who perhaps wasn't suited to an office job or working in service could still find work and feel like they were contributing. The post WW2 rebuilding was attracting people from all over the world and the country boomed in prosperity and population.

When the axe started swinging on the heavy industries (mining, shipbuilding, steelworks etc) these men were forced out of work. Many of them were unemployable through no fault of their own and were unable to find jobs in a changed world. They were forced to turn to the welfare state to keep their families fed and clothed. The very same men who had worn the dirt and sweat of a hard days work as a badge of honour were now forced to queue for the dole. This ruined their pride and self esteem and created a generation of broken men. Take a trip to a working men's club in the north and you'll see them, shovel-like hands wrapped around a pint of mild, leafing through a paper and watching the horse racing. The destruction of these men was watched by their children. They saw their once proud father ruined by having to lean on the state and were instilled with a fear of the future. They grew up in a new world, with less safe jobs. Young men who once would be in the blast furnace now forced to stack shelves or sweep floors. The men that, for many years were the engine of the country had nothing to do. Many, like their fathers ended up leaning on the state, but with one crucial difference: a decreased sense of shame.

Now we reach more recent times. Young men who have seen their fathers and grandfathers live on state benefits and see themselves heading the same way. No ambition, no prospects, no skills to speak of, save one: an overblown sense of entitlement. This generation, now in their teens and early 20s are waiting for their turn, their handout. Work ethics have been eroded away and job prospects have disappeared.

Is it too late? Is this a lost generation? Would the country be willing to live in harsher times whilst investing in the future? I can't answer that.

Here endeth my ramble. Damn you, red bull!

When I had dinner with him, many years ago, I thought he was very affable and charming. Recently, to me, he's embodied the jilted bride, the bitter ex, the bridesmaid. He's lost a lot of currency with me.



So, after the first wave of kids went around smashing shit up, family run businesses, Wendy's restaurant, and a better shop, all things that have clearly wronged them in the past (even though they shouldn't have been in a betting shop, got to be 18. Once, Mummy Afterthought's father won a life changing amount of money on he football pools. With it he bought a flower shop, and it is highly suspected the other half went in the 3:10 at Kempton, but that's another story) and on the news just now, in Birmingham there's footage of one lad saying, excitedly to another "hey lets get some watches". Reports are coming in off all the luxury goods that have been looted, quotes saying 'we can' afford them'. Then, older people began turning up in cars, to remove the heavier items. Once again, luxury goods. So your 'trinkets and items ultimately mean little to human beings' as that's what was being taken. And, bizarrely, iPhones, as there's a new one out soon. They should have waited another 5 weeks.

Education in this country is free to all, there does exist opportunities for one to better themselves, often for free, even if it does mean making a little bit more of an effort. I doubt that many use the local library, swimming pool or youth club. I think attempts to romanticise the struggle of the working class against the cruel conspiracy of the bourgeois in this situation is misplaced. It fails to acknowledge the things that went on the abdication of personal responsibility for the actors involved, the parents of those actors, and the fact it was sheer, wanton, violence. If this truly was the proletarian uprising, stemming from ideal of social mobility and equality, why did they select the very badges of the middle classes to loot, whilst destroying the icons of poverty? Or was it just that those shops, houses and businesses just happened to be there once the situation, and it didn't matter, as it's all fun?

You've picked up on one of the major turning points there, I'm just off to work but I'll post more later.

@DP

very much

Wow DP that is a great post.... how do you vote for post of the week again?

The police appear to be unable of dealing with spontaneous gatherings of people. Their hands are already tied as they are terrified of upsetting anyone from an “ethnic “background”
In part they have bought this on themselves as there have been some disgraceful incidents of racism over the years from the police.

We now have riot via Facebook with a message that there is no consequence to going down your local high street burning and stealing, so far that hasn’t been the case.

The people looting all looked well fed and healthy to me and most of them looked very well dressed to boot, if I was going out rioting and looting I’d have my gardening clothes on!

As for the left wing view that these people are disaffected and have had a hard deal that is rubbish. Labour tipped money into these communities for 15 years, yet the age group that should have benefited from this are out nicking phones and tracksuits.

I do agree with the point that the gap between rich and poor is unacceptable, the very rich can systematically avoid paying tax as can many business that are based here. This is as much Labours fault as anybody’s.

What this leaves is the so called middle classes, who are been put on some sort of pedestal of envy by some left wing clowns, as they have actually dared to buy a house and even worse maybe have a few quid left at the end of the month to go out for a meal.

It’s quickly forgotten that this group, whilst better off than somebody in a service job living in a council house are refinancing the banks and government. They all follow the rules and pay their taxes whilst the rich avoid it and the poor take it.

No it doesn't where Riots are concerned.
My memory of the specifics is a little hazy as it was more than a decade ago that I learnt this stuff, but a Riot is covered by Section 1 of the Public Order Act 1986 and involves 12 or more people using violence, etc, etc.
The definition is virtually the same as Section 2 - Violent disorder which also involves 12 or more people, etc, etc.

The key difference is that once an event is crimed as a Riot then the government are accepting that there has been a breakdown in law and order, and they are then liable for the costs, whereas with a Violent Disorder they aren't. That's why "riots" are often classed as a S2 offence rather than an S1 - leaving the responsibility with the insurance companies.

I think in this case they will be very hard pushed to claim that this wasn't a riot, though they did for the 1990 Poll Tax disturbances and just charged people with S2 offences.

I have to say I'm siding somewhat with MaliA's post on this, after hearing details on the news this morning.

Comments have been made about the causes behind the anger and disenfranchisement, which are generally valid points. Certainly, those factors seemed to be the driving force behind the Paris riots of a few years ago.

These events, I'm less sure. The looters make it seem as though there is a large reservoir of young people who, basically, don't know right from wrong and will commit crime without fear and without a second thought if they think they can get away with it. That has probably always been the case, but now modern communication on smart phones has made the possibility of semi-organised trouble-causing real and much more potent.

And having no respect for law and property because you're oppressed or poor or whatever is one thing - but setting fire to shops with flats above them and meanwhile looting luxury goods or throwing bricks at firemen for a laugh is quite another. I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy or understanding for that.

It's exposed a major social problem which has no doubt been brewing for a long time.

Oh, I 100% agree. My post was just an attempt to explain the genesis of the attitude and demeanour of the crowds. You see it every day in cities: kids who just don't give a shit about anything or anyone but themselves. Littering is a great indicator, vandalism is another. Kids will smash something up just to see someone get angry. It makes them feel like they have power over something.

I'm not sure what to think to be honest. Although I'm not sure that you discuss the motivations of individuals involved and the causes of it as a phenomenon together.

I mean crime in general, we all know that it is more prevalent in poor areas but that also doesn't excuse the actions of individual criminals. Governments and society seem quite at ease with this concept yet with these riots as soon as anyone even mentions the deeper causes they get a bunch of right wing spackers leaping all over them saying that they are "making excuses".

Aside form the serious discussions.... is anyone else waiting with baited breath for the phrase "Looting in Tooting"?