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 Post subject: Phone Hacking/Leveson/Wheeting
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:19 
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Still - current top story of the day is the NotW hacking Millie Dowler's voicemail and listening to and deleting voicemail messages in the middle of the investigation. I wouldn't be looking to the Times for unbiased reporting on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:23 
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Master of dodgy spelling....

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Craster wrote:
Still - current top story of the day is the NotW hacking Millie Dowler's voicemail and listening to and deleting voicemail messages in the middle of the investigation. I wouldn't be looking to the Times for unbiased reporting on that.



They did what?

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:24 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/0 ... s-of-world

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:26 
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Yeah it's practically fucking unbelievable.

Even the Tory press are having to cover this story now, they've been diligently ignoring it up until now, but now it's too big.

Fair play to the Guardian they've really pushed this one hard over the months.


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:27 
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"Heinous" is the word. I heard John Prescott ranting about this on the radio yesterday. It was a most audacious rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:28 
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Plissken wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/04/milly-dowler-voicemail-hacked-news-of-world


That is awful.. How is that good in anyway.

(Does this want splitting)

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:29 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
Yeah it's practically fucking unbelievable.

Even the Tory press are having to cover this story now, they've been diligently ignoring it up until now, but now it's too big.

Fair play to the Guardian they've really pushed this one hard over the months.


I don't think it is a case of the 'Tory Press', it's more a case of the empire involved. Also, the Grauniad isn't as white as you would like to think.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:31 
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Yes, but ALL the Tory press is part of that empire. Isn't it?

No one would claim the Guardian is perfect, but what AE said is correct. They've been a lone voice on this, and plenty of other issues - the BAE thing springs to mind. Media monopolies are a dangerous thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:33 
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Telegraph isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:34 
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Nor is the Mail, Express.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:35 
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Oh, I thought the Mail was! Oops :S
Does the Express count as Tory?


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:36 
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That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:36 
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kalmar wrote:
Oh, I thought the Mail was! Oops :S
Does the Express count as Tory?


I think so. It's certainly conservative.

News Corp has: The Sun, Times, NotW, Sunday Times, TLS.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:37 
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kalmar wrote:
Does the Express count as Tory?


It counts as toilet paper for wankers.


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:37 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.


It only broke yesterday.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:38 
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MaliA wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.


It only broke yesterday.


The Guardian have been onto the overall NoTW phone hacking story for months and months, man.

Not that you'd know it if you didn't read the Guardian, which is my point.

There's been a deliberate 'fingers in our ears' approach to this story by a strangely large chunk of the press up to now.


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:42 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
The Guardian have been onto the overall NoTW phone hacking story for months and months, man.

Not that you'd know it if you didn't read the Guardian, which is my point.

There's been a deliberate 'fingers in our ears' approach to this story by a strangely large chunk of the press up to now.


Oh, totally. However, there's a major difference in impact between the privacy implications of spying on celebrity voicemails, and the fact that deleting voicemails in an ongoing missing child case could have direct impact on the likelihood of finding her alive.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:42 
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AtrocityExhibition wrote:
MaliA wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.


It only broke yesterday.


The Guardian have been onto the overall NoTW phone hacking story for months and months, man.

Not that you'd know it if you didn't read the Guardian, which is my point.

There's been a deliberate 'fingers in our ears' approach to this story by a strangely large chunk of the press up to now.


Not at all

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:47 
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Presumably the NotW have now handed over all their recordings of the voicemails to the police. Bad, dark stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:48 
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Alarm wrote:
Presumably the NotW have now handed over all their recordings of the voicemails to the police. Bad, dark stuff.

And inside a decade! Well done, them!


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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:51 
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MaliA wrote:
Not at all


Wow, the Zambian Post were all over it.

You know what I mean, the story hasn't had anything like the prominence it's deserved up to now, especially since it's not just been celebrity voicemails but politicians and just about anyone else they've been able to violate.

The most depressing thing about the NoTW is that there are enough imbeciles out there to make it an ongoing and commercially viable proposition.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:51 
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What will be done the Journos and Editors at the Notw for this.. I am hoping they will do time.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:52 
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MaliA wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.
It only broke yesterday.
Nah, it's been around since April. http://www.newstatesman.com/newspapers/ ... on-murdoch

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:53 
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KovacsC wrote:
What will be done the Journos and Editors at the Notw for this.. I am hoping they will do time.


They've already put it down to one 'rogue private investigator' who's in jail, despite anyone who knows anything about the business saying that Coulson and Brooks would have been directly involved or at least have known about the practice.

The whole thing will be stitched up, they might have to nominate another fall guy, but the real criminals will get off the hook, as usual.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:54 
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There was some jail time for NoTW staff after the celeb hacking came out, but that was purely for the act of unauthorised access and was only for a few months. Is there any chance that knowingly doing this in an active investigation could lead to more serious criminal charges? Obstruction of Justice or Perverting the course of Justice?


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:55 
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KovacsC wrote:
What will be done the Journos and Editors at the Notw for this.. I am hoping they will do time.


Promoted to Chief Exec and David Camerons head spin doctor. Oh and the investigators got large payoffs when they got out of jail. Also, most celebrities seem to be settling for about £100k each. (Although I think the head of the PFA got £750,000.)

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:56 
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If it had come out during the investigation itself, I'd imagine they'd be suspected to be an accessory.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:56 
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Squirt wrote:
There was some jail time for NoTW staff after the celeb hacking came out, but that was purely for the act of unauthorised access and was only for a few months. Is there any chance that knowingly doing this in an active investigation could lead to more serious criminal charges? Obstruction of Justice or Perverting the course of Justice?


I'd like to think so, but I'm not optimistic.

The hacking of a murdered teenage'rs voicemail that gave false hopes to her parents that she might still be alive and interfered with the police investigation is an act of criminal scummery and absolute moral repugnance.

Someone needs to get sent to fucking jail.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:05 
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There needs to be a proper reckoning here.

I think now that even Cameron is denouncing it in press conferences, they're going to need a high profile fall guy.

Coulson to be jailed for 1 year in a minimum security prison, and then given a mysterious 25 million payout on release, says I.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:05 
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Wullie wrote:
MaliA wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.
It only broke yesterday.
Nah, it's been around since April. http://www.newstatesman.com/newspapers/ ... on-murdoch



I meant the Milly Dowler incident.

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 Post subject: Re: Bits and Bobs 29-The Copper Edition
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:10 
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MaliA wrote:
Wullie wrote:
MaliA wrote:
AtrocityExhibition wrote:
That's the point, this story has scarcely been a blip on the Mail or the Telegraph's radar to date, now it's front page news.
It only broke yesterday.
Nah, it's been around since April. http://www.newstatesman.com/newspapers/ ... on-murdoch
I meant the Milly Dowler incident.
So did I. Buggered if I can find the select committee story now that it's all kicking off, but the wean's brought up halfway through that link.
Quote:
Me Ah . . . I think that was one of the questions asked last week at one of the parliamentary committees. They asked Yates [John Yates, acting deputy commissioner of the Metropolitan Police] if it was true that he thought that the NoW had been hacking the phones of friends and family of those girls who were murdered . . . the Soham murder and the Milly girl [Milly Dowler].
Him Yeah. Yeah. It's more than likely. Yeah . . . It was quite routine. Yeah - friends and family is something that's not as easy to justify as the other things.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:50 
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Shamelessly stolen from various Twitterers:

Quote:
Ed Milliband has commented on the story:
"These actions are wrong at a time when negotiations are still going on"

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:51 
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Erm, The Times have it on the front page and have gone nuts. I don't know if you can read all it so I'll quote in spoiler, although you should note that it starts with:

"Pressure intensified on News International this morning as David Cameron condemned the alleged hacking of murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler’s mobile phone as a “truly dreadful act”, and Ed Miliband called on the company’s chief executive to consider her position."


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/a ... 084398.ece

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Pressure intensified on News International this morning as David Cameron condemned the alleged hacking of murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler’s mobile phone as a “truly dreadful act”, and Ed Miliband called on the company’s chief executive to consider her position.

Speaking in Afghanistan, where the issue was raised by journalists at a press conference on British troop withdrawals, the Prime Minister said that the allegations were appalling.

“If they are true, this is a truly dreadful act and a truly dreadful situation,” said Mr Cameron.

“What I have read in the papers is quite, quite shocking, that someone could do this actually knowing that the police were trying to find [Milly] and trying to find out what had happened.”

Mr Cameron referred to the Metropolitan Police’s wider investigation into alleged phone-hacking by news organisations, codenamed Operation Weeting, and he urged detectives to pursue their inquiries “without fear or favour... to get to the truth of what happened”.

This morning detectives from the Operation Weeting team met senior executives from News International to discuss the latest allegations.

The meeting was part of a series of regular communications between police and the publishing company which have been taking place since the new police investigation was launched six months ago.

It is understood that ongoing developments in the case, including the allegations over the hacking of Milly’s phone and the phones of her parents, were discussed.

News International was represented at the meeting by Will Lewis, Group General Manager, and Simon Greenberg, Director of Corporate Affairs.

A source said: “It was a regular meeting which was in the diary and has been taking place every fortnight. We can’t say specifically what discussions took place but current and new issues were on the agenda.”

Police have informed the Dowler family that after 13-year-old Milly went missing near her home in Walton-on-Thames her voicemails were intercepted by phone hacker Glenn Mulcaire at the instigation of the News of the World, Mark Lewis, a lawyer for the Dowler family, said yesterday.

As the increasingly desperate messages left by Milly’s family and friends threatened to fill her phone’s mailbox, Mulcaire deleted older messages to leave room for more, Mr Lewis claimed, adding that the News of the World had published a story that was apparently based on information from the voicemails.

He described the newspaper’s alleged actions as “despicable”, and announced that the family intended to sue.

It has been suggested that the act of accessing and deleting the messages may have fooled detectives that Milly was still alive. Surrey Police has denied that its investigation was compromised by the hacking.

There were calls this morning for Rebekah Brooks, who was editor of the News of the World in the spring of 2002 when Milly was abducted, to consider her position as chief executive of News International.

Mr Miliband, the Labour leader, said Ms Brooks should “consider her conscience and consider her position”. He described the phone hacking scandal as “truly immoral” and “sick” and said there should be a public inquiry once the police investigation ended.

Stephen Abell, the director of the Press Complaints Commission, said Ms Brooks should “take responsibility” for any allegations of phone-hacking. He stopped short of calling for Ms Brooks’ resignation, however, saying “that’s got to be a matter for her”.

Ms Brooks has reportedly told colleagues that she is not planning to quit. Later today she is expected to tell staff at News International that she is deeply shocked by the allegations, which the company has been working through the night to investigate.

Ms Brooks has indicated that the first she knew of the alleged hacking of Milly’s phone was yesterday, when the Dowler family said that they intended to sue. According to reports Ms Brooks has spoken to Rupert Murdoch, the owner of News Corporation, News International’s parent company, and is under no pressure from him to stand down.

A spokesman for News International, which also publishes The Times, said: “This case is clearly a development of great concern and we will be conducting our own inquiries as a result.

“We will co-operate fully with any police request should we be asked.”

Police are deciding whether to bring criminal charges against journalists.

Detectives have told Ms Brooks that her own mobile phone messages were intercepted.

The Dowler family’s lawyer say that the police investigation is not enough, however. Mr Lewis added his voice to calls for a public inquiry into the phone hacking scandal. He predicted that there were would be more revelations and warning that the police inquiry would not necessarily uncover the truth as Mr Cameron hoped.

“It depends if charges are made, and if people plead guilty or not guilty,” said Mr Lewis. “I’m sure that there will be more allegations. It is very difficult to think how anything could be worse, but there could be things as bad.”

Meanwhile a campaign has begun on Twitter, the microblogging website, to pressurise large companies to withdraw their advertising from the News of the World, to show their disapproval of the Dowler allegations.

Tony Kennick, a citizen blogger who works as a consultant with the Sheffield-based web firm TechnoPhobia, is urging other Twitter users to contact the Co-Operative Bank, First Choice holidays, Renault cars and a number of other major companies asking them to boycott the newspaper. The campaign appeared to be gaining traction online, with a stream of thousands of retweets.

The latest development in the long-running phone hacking claims appears to have moved the scandal about illegal newsgathering to a new level.

Mulcaire and Clive Goodman, the News of the World’s former royal editor, were jailed in 2007 after admitting intercepting voicemail messages left for aides to the royal household and other public figures.

The police seized 11,000 pages of notes from Mulcaire’s home during the initial investigation in 2006. These documents have since suggested that a large number of other public figures fell victim to hacking. Politicians, sporting figures and celebrities have either been contacted directly by the police with details of what information was intercepted, or have been invited to get in touch with detectives to be shown any reference to them in the documents.

Scotland Yard has been forced to open a new inquiry, Operation Weeting, which has led to five arrests including three present or former News of the World journalists, a freelance reporter and a Press Association correspondent.

The new investigation also has access to a wealth of material provided by News International, and 50 detectives, including officers seconded from rape and murder units, are working on the case.

News International has established a £15 million compensation fund to pay damages to victims of phone hacking.

Former deputy prime minister Lord Prescott said on Twitter that he would write to the culture secretary, Jeremy Hunt, asking him to block News Corporation’s attempt to take full control of BSkyB following the revelations about Dowler.

But Mr Cameron made clear that he would not intervene in the bid.

“The Government, on these processes, is acting in a quasi-judicial way and it is quite right that the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Jeremy Hunt) carries out his role in that manner without any interference from anyone else in the Government,” he said.

John Whittingdale, chairman of the Culture, Media and Sport select committee, agreed that alleged hacking at the News of the World and the Sky takeover bid should not be linked. But the senior Tory backbencher accused News International – and the police - of a long-standing lack of “willingness” to investigate phone hacking allegations fully.

“There have been previous police investigations which concluded there wasn’t evidence,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“Even what is coming out now is evidence that has been in the possession of the police ever since the original arrest of Glenn Mulcaire.”

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:53 
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I believe that the Times have run with it because their readers were asking why they weren't.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:55 
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Still a very ballsy story to run though.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:58 
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Craster wrote:
Shamelessly stolen from various Twitterers:

Quote:
Ed Milliband has commented on the story:
"These actions are wrong at a time when negotiations are still going on"


:DD

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:58 
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Gogmagog

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Craster wrote:
Shamelessly stolen from various Twitterers:

Quote:
Ed Milliband has commented on the story:
"These actions are wrong at a time when negotiations are still going on"


Ha ha. Ace.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:59 
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Decca wrote:
Still a very ballsy story to run though.


Not really. They had absolutely no choice.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 13:39 
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Notable absence of the name Coulson in all of that.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 13:46 
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Craster wrote:
Decca wrote:
Still a very ballsy story to run though.


Not really. They had absolutely no choice.

Plus, hand wringing and feeling guilty over the past while apologising for it to try and win people over is very 2011.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 16:40 
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I'm sorry.


In other news:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/ju ... ies-police

That'll be the "even worse things" alluded to earlier, then.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 16:53 
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Journalists in 'being utter wankers' shocker. (It's utterly disgraceful nonetheless though, obviously).

In a very small way, I've personally experienced the depths that journos will go to in order to grab a story. Thing is though, I hate them all and don't differentiate them on the basis of one publication or another (and certainly not one political colour or another). They'd all sell their grannies as and when required, by any means necessary - that's my take on it.

Still, I'm sure they all do silver, glittery farts and excrete tiny white tablets that smell of roses at The Guardian, instead of stinking great turds like everyone else. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 16:56 
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Especially games journalists.

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 Post subject: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:12 
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baron of techno

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It's interesting that you apply that measure to journalists (which I'd largely agree with too), but not politicians...


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:21 
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kalmar wrote:
It's interesting that you apply that measure to journalists (which I'd largely agree with too), but not politicians...


Politicians today, post Blair/Nu Labour/1997? Largely, though I'd not go quite as far as to direct equate them to journalists (or bankers).

Back when I was a nipper though, politicians went into Politics on the basis of belief, wanting to change things/engage with 'the system' of their own accord, rather than the 'career politicians' we see today, predominantly though not exclusively on the Labour side, who've never even had a proper job, less still ran anything (e.g. a successful business) themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:29 
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Captain Caveman wrote:
Back when I was a nipper though, politicians went into Politics on the basis of belief, wanting to change things/engage with 'the system' of their own accord, rather than the 'career politicians' we see today, predominantly though not exclusively on the Labour side, who've never even had a proper job, less still ran anything (e.g. a successful business) themselves.
Like Margaret Thatcher, who first ran for office in 1950 at the age of 25, qualified as a barrister in 1953 whilst marking time waiting for a safe Labour seat, and was an MP from 1959 onwards? Sounds like a textbook career politician to me. Or Edward Heath, who was made an MP in 1950 at the age of 34 following a post-war career as a civil servant? Or John Major, who stood as the candidate for Lambeth at the age of 21?

Aren't these people all "career politicians"?


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:43 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
Back when I was a nipper though, politicians went into Politics on the basis of belief, wanting to change things/engage with 'the system' of their own accord, rather than the 'career politicians' we see today, predominantly though not exclusively on the Labour side, who've never even had a proper job, less still ran anything (e.g. a successful business) themselves.
Like Margaret Thatcher, who first ran for office in 1950 at the age of 25, qualified as a barrister in 1953 whilst marking time waiting for a safe Labour seat, and was an MP from 1959 onwards? Sounds like a textbook career politician to me. Or Edward Heath, who was made an MP in 1950 at the age of 34 following a post-war career as a civil servant? Or John Major, who stood as the candidate for Lambeth at the age of 21?

Aren't these people all "career politicians"?


Not sure where you get your info from; Margaret Thatcher was qualified as, and worked as a Research Chemist after graduating at Oxford. She was a Scientist.

John Major worked for years as a senior banker and was at least, therefore, exposed to the 'real world' of business and commerce.

Heath fought in the Second World War (having already gone to Oxford, despite being 'only' a builder's son, and having also gone to the Spanish Civil War front as an undergraduate), as an Officer of the Royal Artillery, gaining an MBE in the process. (I should imagine these experiences taught him plenty about 'real life' ;) ). And anyway, he then went to work as a senior banker after the war and thus held a 'real job' to boot.

So then, in answer to your question: no, these people were not all "career politicians" (according to the definition I alluded to and despite all of them rising to the Office of Prime Minister), or indeed any of them.

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:45 
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I think it's a little unfair to cite prime ministers as examples, seeing as you're pretty darn likely to be a "career politician" - or at least likely to devote a significant chunk of your career - to get a sniff of leadership in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:49 
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WTB wrote:
I think it's a little unfair to cite prime ministers as examples, seeing as you're pretty darn likely to be a "career politician" - or at least likely to devote a significant chunk of your career - to get a sniff of leadership in the first place.


True enough. Even if all three of these ex-PMs were 'career politicians' who'd never had a real job between them - which as I've shown they were not - that'd hardly prove feck all anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRheathE.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Major

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 Post subject: Re: NotW Phone Hacking Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 17:56 
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And Blair was a barrister for longer than Thatcher's brief science career (her elections were largely bankrolled by Denis, as I recall), so I guess he counts too…how you count Brown depends on how you value lecturer/journalist, I guess :).


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