I've been issued a "parking notice"

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 19:15

Today I was given a parking notice for £90 (£60 if paid within 7 days).

It's not from the council or police so a bit of digging reveals it to be a private company. I'm not going to pay it as I left my car to get change from the shops, came back to it but 2 minutes late to see I had the ticket. I've emailed the appeals email the following:-

Quote:

Dear sir/madam,

I have just returned to my vehicle (insert reg here) to find I have the above parking ticket.

I parked my car in the Townsend place car park, realised I had no change and went to get some from one of the local shops. I returned immediately to see that I had a ticket. I understand that cars parked without tickets should be fined but I feel mine is unjust as I was away from the car for less than 2 minutes, and even then, I was willing to pay the fee for parking.

I often park on this car park and I know that the pay and display is in effect and I have always used the ticket machine located by the precinct entrance.

The ticket is noted at 15:09. You will see from this email that no time has passed at all and I have also called your head office and spoke with a lady named Jean who advised I should appeal.

I'm not against parking fees and I always play by the rules, on this occasion whoever I feel that the parking attendant was a bit eager in issuing the ticket.

I would appreciate it if this matter could be looked at and the fine revoked.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours,

Praisebot

The fun part is that it's a company car. I've emailed the company garage and my boss advising them that I refuse to pay it so it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

Stay tuned folks!

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 19:18

Smash the system, Praisebot!

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11864

Hhhmmmmmmmm:

Attachment:

praisebot.JPG

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

I had one a while back, just ignore it and don't enter any correspondence with them (whoops!

) they will send you a few letters, all with statements like "you may be taken to court" "you may have to pay a fine" "we could be forced to get the bailiffs in" etc...
It's all bullshit and basically extortion.

The only parking fines you legally have to pay are council or police issued fines, all fines from private firms that do this are unenforceable.

This is also the system we have (through incompetence rather than design) at my flat, the management agent appointed parking company inspectors are idiots and ticket anybody and everybody who parks anywhere near our land, regardless of whether they should or not. The public see the tickets and stay away, the residents just ignore the tickets and tell the inspectors to fuck off if we ever catch them anywhere near our cars.
Works rather well

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 20:19

I figure that by admitting the fact you were driving the car, you've kinda set yourself up into a contract with them, now, from an evidential point of view.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

MaliA wrote:

I figure that by admitting the fact you were driving the car, you've kinda set yourself up into a contract with them, now, from an evidential point of view.

But there is no evidence to say that he was accepting of the contract before he got the ticket, which is the main point, isn't it? Just putting up a sign and saying the contract is on the sign, you should have read it, doesn't count.

"I understand that cars parked without tickets should be fined but I feel mine is unjust as I was away from the car for less than 2 minutes, and even then, I was willing to pay the fee for parking." I guess it depends on how you interpret that wording as to whether it was an acceptance of the penalty contract, or just acceptance on the needs to pay a fee to park.

Either way, I would be very surprised if they were to take it much further than a few threatening letters, courts are expensive, they will just write it off and move on to the next sucker.

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 20:30

MaliA wrote:

I figure that by admitting the fact you were driving the car, you've kinda set yourself up into a contract with them, now, from an evidential point of view.

I can't get out of the fact that I was driving the car because it's registered to me and me alone. I was admitting that I was there and that I'm happy to pay the normal parking charges which I was on my way to do.

Anyway.. it's a moot point because I'm not paying it.

So there....

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 20:39

Trooper wrote:

MaliA wrote:

I figure that by admitting the fact you were driving the car, you've kinda set yourself up into a contract with them, now, from an evidential point of view.

But there is no evidence to say that he was accepting of the contract before he got the ticket, which is the main point, isn't it? Just putting up a sign and saying the contract is on the sign, you should have read it, doesn't count.

You'd have to look at the ticketing cases. Mainly these are to do with incorporating terms into a contract, and I'm sure my friend Mr Chris will agree, it is an area that has caused a mixture of amusement and frustration amongst the courts.

It is perfectly possible to argue that, given a well displayed sign, offering parking in return for a fee, that an offer of parking was accepted upon entering the car park. As such, the terms and conditions were accepted before money was put into the machine or not. And that's your contract there. The alternative is, to put it simply, stupid.

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 21:03

Well in that case I was happy to accept their terms and conditions because I was going to pay.

The (person-ed) that gave me the ticket pounced on my car the minute I was away from it.

I was only a few minutes, I imagine I would have been the same amount of time had there been 3 or 4 people queuing up to use the ticketing machine. Would I have had a parking notice then?

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 21:14

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your integrity at all.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

MaliA wrote:

It is perfectly possible to argue that, given a well displayed sign, offering parking in return for a fee, that an offer of parking was accepted upon entering the car park. As such, the terms and conditions were accepted before money was put into the machine or not. And that's your contract there. The alternative is, to put it simply, stupid.

It's also possible to argue that for a contract to be in place, both sides need to agree to the terms, just reading some words isn't enough.

If malia posts again in this thread, he owes me £100...

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 21:30

Hang on, if there's money to be had it should be mine.. it's my thread and I have a debt I need to pay off! :hat:

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 21:31

MaliA wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your integrity at all.

I'm not saying you are, you are after all.. excellent.. but I'm afraid I'm on my high horse with this ticket and I'm a little bit livid. Please excuse my "bolshyness".

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 21:34

Trooper wrote:

It's also possible to argue that for a contract to be in place, both sides need to agree to the terms, just reading some words isn't enough.

If malia posts again in this thread, he owes me £100...

The latter is offer/acceptance arguments, the former an interesting point. Which terms CAN be incorporated into a contract?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_v ... arking_Ltd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_v_S ... ay_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapelton_v_Barry_UDC

are the three that do spring to mind. It's perfectly possibly to refer to terms and conditions that exist in another document, as long as attention is drawn to them. Also, how many people negotiate their cellphone contract?

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

MaliA wrote:

Also, how many people negotiate their cellphone contract?

Very few. But they all sign it and agree to it

Ramsea · **Joined:** 20th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 963

In future, the best thing to do is to have a sign on your dashboard saying "By placing any item on my vehicle you agree that it will cost you £200."

I had a ticket a few years ago from a similar company working for Tescos. They basically try write out tickets which look like legitimate parking tickets, but as has been mentioned here already, they are nothing more than an invoice.

I'm guessing if even 10% (although I suspect it might be more) of people panic and pay up then its easy money for them.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Trooper wrote:

don't enter any correspondence with them

Remember kids, ask BEEX before you do anything in life.

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 22:23

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Trooper wrote:

don't enter any correspondence with them

Remember kids, ask BEEX before you do anything in life.

I probably should have asked before ordering that Atari Jaguar off eBay too?

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

TheVision wrote:

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Trooper wrote:

don't enter any correspondence with them

Remember kids, ask BEEX before you do anything in life.

I probably should have asked before ordering that Atari Jaguar off eBay too?

I probably should have bought an Atari Jaguar when Game were flogging them for 30 quid in 2002......

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 22:40

Me too.. and I worked there at the time! :facepalm:

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 22:42

Ramsea wrote:

In future, the best thing to do is to have a sign on your dashboard saying "By placing any item on my vehicle you agree that it will cost you £200."

I had a ticket a few years ago from a similar company working for Tescos. They basically try write out tickets which look like legitimate parking tickets, but as has been mentioned here already, they are nothing more than an invoice.

I'm guessing if even 10% (although I suspect it might be more) of people panic and pay up then its easy money for them.

I've been doing some searching and since it's a private parking company, they can get to fucking fuck.

Anyway.. something I've always wondered... if they go to the DVLA, why should the DVLA give out my details? Surely that's something to do with data protection?

devilman · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 22:43

chinnyhill10 wrote:

TheVision wrote:

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Trooper wrote:

don't enter any correspondence with them

Remember kids, ask BEEX before you do anything in life.

I probably should have asked before ordering that Atari Jaguar off eBay too?

I probably should have bought an Atari Jaguar when Game were flogging them for 30 quid in 2002......

Nah. You should have bought them from Telegames when they were offloading them (and Atari Lynxes) for £7 a pop.

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 22:49

That's where GAME got them from... I remember seeing the promotional material that came with them.

I remember thinking it was an amazing find, all these Jaguars in pristine condition... until a load of them were returned broken.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 23:26

TheVision wrote:

Ramsea wrote:

In future, the best thing to do is to have a sign on your dashboard saying "By placing any item on my vehicle you agree that it will cost you £200."

I had a ticket a few years ago from a similar company working for Tescos. They basically try write out tickets which look like legitimate parking tickets, but as has been mentioned here already, they are nothing more than an invoice.

I'm guessing if even 10% (although I suspect it might be more) of people panic and pay up then its easy money for them.

I've been doing some searching and since it's a private parking company, they can get to fucking fuck.

Anyway.. something I've always wondered... if they go to the DVLA, why should the DVLA give out my details? Surely that's something to do with data protection?

No, it isn't a data protection issue.

Good luck fighting it.

Pod · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2568

MaliA wrote:

Trooper wrote:

It's also possible to argue that for a contract to be in place, both sides need to agree to the terms, just reading some words isn't enough.

If malia posts again in this thread, he owes me £100...

The latter is offer/acceptance arguments, the former an interesting point. Which terms CAN be incorporated into a contract?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_v ... arking_Ltd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_v_S ... ay_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapelton_v_Barry_UDC

are the three that do spring to mind. It's perfectly possibly to refer to terms and conditions that exist in another document, as long as attention is drawn to them. Also, how many people negotiate their cellphone contract?

Trooper wrote:

The only parking fines you legally have to pay are council or police issued fines, all fines from private firms that do this are unenforceable.

What about clamps?

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 23:39

See Arther v Anker

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

Trooper wrote:

I had one a while back, just ignore it and don't enter any correspondence with them (whoops!

) they will send you a few letters, all with statements like "you may be taken to court" "you may have to pay a fine" "we could be forced to get the bailiffs in" etc...
It's all bullshit and basically extortion.

The only parking fines you legally have to pay are council or police issued fines, all fines from private firms that do this are unenforceable.

This is also the system we have (through incompetence rather than design) at my flat, the management agent appointed parking company inspectors are idiots and ticket anybody and everybody who parks anywhere near our land, regardless of whether they should or not. The public see the tickets and stay away, the residents just ignore the tickets and tell the inspectors to fuck off if we ever catch them anywhere near our cars.
Works rather well

Watched something on TV about this, they have to prove who the driver was at the time of the so called offence. With the Police and Council you have prove that you weren't the driver.

Just keep asking them to prove who the driver was, they will send you loads of bullshit letters claiming court action and bailiffs, again they can't send a bailiff unless to are in default of a CCJ.

They have to take to court and get a CCJ and they will never do that, so just ride it out and they will fuck off after 6 months.

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

Pod wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Trooper wrote:

It's also possible to argue that for a contract to be in place, both sides need to agree to the terms, just reading some words isn't enough.

If malia posts again in this thread, he owes me £100...

The latter is offer/acceptance arguments, the former an interesting point. Which terms CAN be incorporated into a contract?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_v ... arking_Ltd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_v_S ... ay_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapelton_v_Barry_UDC

are the three that do spring to mind. It's perfectly possibly to refer to terms and conditions that exist in another document, as long as attention is drawn to them. Also, how many people negotiate their cellphone contract?

Trooper wrote:

The only parking fines you legally have to pay are council or police issued fines, all fines from private firms that do this are unenforceable.

What about clamps?

Same deal, but a trifle trickier not to pay...

Clamping firms are going to become illegal soon anyway, aren't they?

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:11

asfish wrote:

Watched something on TV about this, they have to prove who the driver was at the time of the so called offence. With the Police and Council you have prove that you weren't the driver.

Just keep asking them to prove who the driver was, they will send you loads of bullshit letters claiming court action and bailiffs, again they can't send a bailiff unless to are in default of a CCJ.

They have to take to court and get a CCJ and they will never do that, so just ride it out and they will fuck off after 6 months.

Seeing as he's already admitted he was the driver, and the car was parked without a ticket, it might prove difficult claim he didn't know who was driving now. He's already said that he was aware that getting a parking ticket for not having paid was a risk, and such a charge is not a penalty, but an agreed charge. The use of the land could be the consideration for the contract.

Car parking people have taken people to court and won before, see here.

Personally, I'd just pay the cash, and consider it an expensive trip to the shops. This is because further action will probably take up more of my time, and then saving that £60 disapepars rather quickly.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:24

Don't pay.. Make them chase you, as it has been said before it is an invoice not a ticket that a traffic warden issued.

TheVision · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:34

I will make them chase me as its a private parking company. I would be happy to stand up in court and fight my side of the story so of they want to take it that far, then they can.

Also there was a video on YouTube from watchdog saying I should ignore it too. I'm going to pop in the police station this morning and get their advice on the notice and see if its legally enforceable.

GazChap · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:38

Yeah, you should ignore these, but as has been said, now that you've contacted them and admitted that you were the driver, your chances of getting out of it are significantly slimmer.

Good luck!

"Penalty Charge Notices" are enforceable, "Parking Charge Notices" are not. That's the general rule AFAIK.

TheVision · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:47

But let's not forget that I went to get change to pay the meter. I was only away for less than 2 minutes. Probably the same time if there was a queue at the machine.

Is this a fair and justifiable charge? I don't think so... it'll be interesting to see what my work says since its a company car.

GazChap · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:10

You're right, it's not a fair and justifiable charge, but they're absolute twats. Only clampers are worse.

Something similar happened to a friend of mine, and when he tried to appeal they basically just told him that he should have had the correct change for the machine on him and that it wasn't their fault that he didn't.

I suspect had he filed some sort of legal action against them he'd have won, but he didn't want to waste the time on it.

TheVision · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:12

So what did he do? Did he pay it?

GazChap · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:12

He paid it, yes.

Grim... · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:14

It's a shame you've told them about the shop, as you could have truthfully said "I was ticketed while on my way to the ticket machine after arriving in the car park."

TheVision · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:19

Yeah, I should have waited before I sent the email. I should have consulted the hive mind.

I've just been in touch with my cousin who's a police man. He says I shouldn't have got in touch either but reckons I shouldn't do anything until I see a court summons.

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 13:06

I've had a response from my appeal

Quote:

Dear Mr Vision
Date of Issue: 08/06/2011

We have recently received your letter of appeal. We have decided that this parking charge stands. We are willing to accept £60.00 as full settlement of the parking charge providing the payment is received no later than 7 days from the above date.

The reason in which your appeal has been refused is due to no ticket within your vehicle on the day in question. Without a valid pay and display ticket we cannot justify a stay at Townsend Place car parking facilities as we are acting on behalf of our client of whom state if a pay and display ticket is not displayed then a parking contravention is being committed.

A five minute grace period is applied to all vehicles before a parking charge notice is issued however you failed to return within this time. Therefore we cannot waiver this charge notice.

Your appeal is refused for the reasons stated above. This decision is final there will be no further correspondence regarding this appeal.

Please forward the payment of £60.00 within 7 days to the address stated above. You should be aware that it is your responsibility to ensure that payment is received by Elite Management (Midlands) Ltd within the timeframe specified. Please note that failure to provide payment within 7 days of the above date will result in the withdrawal of the early payment reduction and will increase the outstanding amount to the original £90.00 charge.

Yours truly
Terri Vas (Ms)
Appeals Dept
Elite Management (Midlands) Ltd

Clever wording but I could argue the 5 minutes grace period as I wasn't that long.. but anyway, they say that this decision is final.

I'm thinking I just ignore it now and hope it goes away.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 13:10

Yup ignore it..

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

"This decision is final there will be no further correspondence regarding this appeal."

I love this sort of bullshit

It's as if they don't want to or can't justify their actions... wait a minute! :DD

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Parking companies are bastards. Mrs Chinny In Laws offices had a private contractor on their shared card park. You'd get clamped even with the pass in the window and even if you produced a pass afterwards (say it had fallen off the windscreen) they'd still demand money until they unclamped you.

The company were also often in the papers for all sorts of dodgy activities. Borderline criminals the lot of them.

chinnyhill10 · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 15695

Trooper wrote:

"This decision is final there will be no further correspondence regarding this appeal."

I love this sort of bullshit

It's as if they don't want to or can't justify their actions... wait a minute! :DD

Quote:

Dear Elite Parking Management,

I didn't write to you for a lecture on communism.

Love The Vision. x x x

p.s please post proof of your "elite" ranking. I reckon you are no more than "poor".

DO IT!

Trooper · **Joined:** 4th Mar, 2010 **Posts:** 22368

chinnyhill10 wrote:

Parking companies are bastards. Mrs Chinny In Laws offices had a private contractor on their shared card park. You'd get clamped even with the pass in the window and even if you produced a pass afterwards (say it had fallen off the windscreen) they'd still demand money until they unclamped you.

The company were also often in the papers for all sorts of dodgy activities. Borderline criminals the lot of them.

The sooner clampers are made illegal, the better, and I live in a place where parking can be a fucking nightmare during exam times and clamping would fix that! It would mean having to deal with the criminals though, so better the devil you know...

Blucey · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1975

I tried to appeal a council-issued ticket a couple of months back. Didn't get very far with that. I only did it because the ticket was issued when I popped into the post office to post some eBay items.

Ticket more than outweighed what I made on them.

My own fault but I tried to argue that there was no reason for that bit of road to have restrictions on it. I was right but whatever.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 13:40

TheVision wrote:

This decision is final there will be no further correspondence regarding this appeal.

The other decision that was final was their hatred for commas.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 14:08

Blucey wrote:

I tried to appeal a council-issued ticket a couple of months back. Didn't get very far with that. I only did it because the ticket was issued when I popped into the post office to post some eBay items.

Ticket more than outweighed what I made on them.

My own fault but I tried to argue that there was no reason for that bit of road to have restrictions on it. I was right but whatever.

That is different to the car park one...

GazChap · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 14:17

TheVision wrote:

I'm thinking I just ignore it now and hope it goes away.

You've admitted that you were driving.

That's basically enough to form a contract, I'd say you're stuffed. You could argue that you didn't see the signs and therefore the contract is null and void, but you'd have to prove that the signs weren't clearly visible...

TheVision · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 14:50

Of course, I could always reply by saying that I'm glad they have the 5 minutes grace period as I was definitely no longer than this.

Or I could ignore it... hopefully they'll send the "invoice" to my work and hopefully it'll be ignored.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2011 14:52

Where did the result of the appeal arrive?

Be Excellent To Each Other

I've been issued a "parking notice"
But I'm not going to pay it

Who is online

Be Excellent To Each Other

I've been issued a "parking notice" But I'm not going to pay it

Who is online

I've been issued a "parking notice"
But I'm not going to pay it