Be Excellent To Each Other

Dear Next,

Ordering a scarf for the Mrs should be a simple affair. Select scarf, make payment, and then receive scarf.

So I go through the process only to be told at the end that no money is needed today as I now have a free credit account! There is no way to pay by card until I actually have the goods.

Talk about shoddy Del Boy retail practice, just handing out £300 of credit that I don't want and only telling me right at the end of the process.

If I phone them up they can't take any money straight away and they can't cancel the account. All I could do was argue with them until they pulled the order.

Really really shoddy business practices going on there. Let alone the promise of free delivery only to find that free delivery only applies if you buy their catalogue which costs 25p less than the delivery would have.

Del Boy would be proud.

I'm sure they featured this sharp practice on Watchdog a couple of months ago.

Or maybe I dreamt it.

Very.co.uk does the same thing. I didn't actually buy anything from them in the end but they gave me a £500 credit limit and because I cancelled the order they sent me an email saying "We noticed you cancelled your order..blah...we're sorry...blah...so we've increased ypur credit limit to £750, now you can make Christmas extra special!" piss off. Now my limit is about £1100, which is shocking.

Is it actually interest bearing? Otherwise it's just trade terms. I don't have to pay the coal guy or the quarry until 28 days after the stuff's delivered.

and doesn't it just makes it easier to return the stuff you don't want, as you haven't actually paid them? With an online clothes shop that's a fairly big consideration for them.

Imagine going on, I dunno, Ebuyer, making a purchase and then being told you could have it all on credit.

It's just inconceivable. So why the fuck Next are doing it, lord only knows.

Debenhams online have got my money instead. They actually want it at the time of purchase instead of trying to suck me into a spiral of debt.

Difference is, as a business owner it can be quite hard to get companies to give you credit on the terms Next are. One of my suppliers offered me credit subject to 2 references! Luckily I had no need for it.

I don't see what the problem is if there's no interest.

This is it. Imagine someone who for which money is tight this Christmas. They might order up goods and then not account for the fact the money is spent. They then end up in debt.

It's the principle of it. See my post above.

I had no choice in the matter. Unlike someone like Viking Direct who have offered me credit, if I should want it.

Next aren't doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts. They want people to default. They don't even take card details so they can debit at the end of the 28 days if needed.

All you have to do is pay the money before it's due. Exactly the same as when I buy coal or get a tradesman to do work on the house. It's hardly a big deal.

You can.

I probably wouldn't buy either once I found that out, also out of principle, as you're being forced to accept another card that you don't want.

On the other hand, the shop is simply carrying out it's legitimate business to maximise profits by exploiting the stupid, so you can't really act surprised about it.

The thrust of the argument is, if I understand Chinny correctly, 'poor people can't be trusted with credit'.

Not by default you can't. I'd also wager you'd get more warning than Next offer.

It's not exploiting the stupid. It's exploiting everyone because it is not made clear whats happening until after you've clicked "confirm" on the order.

It does look that way, yes.

Its the first bit on the terms and conditions.

Yeah, but you're at least going to pay it off and not end up being sucked into a spiral of debt, because you're not stupid.

So you've been inconvenienced, not actually exploited (i.e. you're no worse off, in fact better off to the tune of 28 days interest free credit).

Also, they're removing any practical barrier for anyone to have a thing now which they can't afford. This is at best irresponsible and it's how a lot of people end up "poor" in the first place.

Yeah, poor people should have to save up first. Particularly the ones who can't afford bank accounts, but then there's places like Farepak where they can do their saving.

Oh.

Couldn't you get this scarf on Amazon? I just buy everything from there.

What I am saying is that if you choose to have credit then fine. Next give you no choice. There is a debt problem in this country and Next aren't helping. They effectively force you to have a storecard and we all know the stories about those!

And nobody reads the T+C's except laywers

What bizarre bank are you with that doesn't offer free accounts? You cannae even sign on at the broo without a bank account.

Exactly. (Whatever the broo is)

I had been lead to believe by the reporting on the Farepak collapse that a lot of banks won't offer bank accounts to people who don't have more than X pounds going into it every month i.e. it's a condition of the bank account that more than, say, £1,000 per month goes into it.

Not sure if this is true, but that's what was said. Or at least I rememebr that's what was said. There are a fair few million people without bank accounts, apparantly.

Two million, according to this.

If there was a legal requirement to buy things from Next, I would agree.

As it stands, that is a crap statement.

So not true. Sure, banks have some accounts that require a certain amount every month but they usually have account benefits.

When I set up Chinnyincorporated Ltd, for the first 18 months I ran it from a free account in my name rather than a business account. I can assure you there were quite a few months when fuck all was going in. Nobody asked me what it was for or how much would be going in.

What I didn't get was an overdraft but I didn't want one. Eventually they added one but wrote to me telling me.

So, what, Next are actually providing a valuable service to the disenfranchised and jobless by providing everyone with free lines of credit with no checks whatsoever?

It's not much different to those loanshark characters that go around sink estates offering cash and tat at 5000% APRs.

The Jobbie Centre.

Except Next won't charge you a penny if you pay within 28 days.

It's hardly loan sharking, and it's a bit patronising to the poor to make the statment "they're removing any practical barrier for anyone to have a thing now which they can't afford. This is at best irresponsible and it's how a lot of people end up "poor" in the first place." That is, in effect, saying "poor people can't even be trusted with interest free credit".

Shrug, guilty as charged then

Actually, I think it goes further than that. The intimation is that "Stupid people can't be trusted with the internet". A view to which I fully subscribe.

I know plenty of folk, poor or otherwise, who can't be trusted with credit.

That was more my point, to be fair.

But in many ways it is how people end up worse off because there's not even any thinking about it. If you tried the same thing in a Next store you'd have to fill out a form to get a store card, and there might even be a credit check. Online there was no check and no form. They just took the details from the deliver address.

And actually your example about coal is poor, because the first time I ordered oil for our house I had to pay in advance. Once they established I was "good for it" I got a credit account.

It's not poor, because the first time I ordered coal, and the first time I ordered walling stone from somewhere entirely separate, I did it over the phone, they delivered it, and I got an invoice in the post. Clearly I just sound trustworthy. I should start phoning people and asking them to help with the inheritance I need to shift from Nigeria.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind.

+ there is no barrier to entry.

When I wanted a company credit card (shock horror) I went to (Natch North Bank - Ed) who wanted umpteen pages of forms filled out despite me having an account with a stack of cash in it. The process was so tedious I eventually told them to GTFF.

A few weeks later I was walking around (the posh supermarket owned by the check out staff - Ed) and (YMCA Business - Ed) rang me up and offered me a business credit card. They did a few checks while I was buying cold meats and my card turned up a few days later.

It seemed so easy I was dubious at first but they had presumably run the appropriate credit checks and decided that my business entity was good for it based on Companies House data.

But how do Next decide you are good for it? Why isn't there a "pay now or 28 days option". I don't care so much they offer credit, I care more that there is no choice. I can't think of many, if any, reputable online retailers that do this. Yes Ebuyer and Viking offer credit but there is a barrier to entry.

Doesn't the amount of existing credit you already have affect your credit rating? I'd be peed off if I ended up with a higher loan interest rate because I had bought a scarf from Next and some socks from Very and was given a hefty extra credit line.

I think that in the shops, there's a 10% discount if you get the card.

I'd suspect there's already a discount applied if you buy online, so you're getting the card if you like it or not.

I'd guess that the Catalogue stores (Freemans, Littlewoods... mmmhh lingerie section) have the same conditions as they make their money by selling cheap but on weekly tick.

TBH, whilst we can worry about the poor, and people not being trusted with credit, that is one thing, and arguably no, credit shouldn't be the only offer from a moral standpoint. But in the defence of Next, their stuff is cheap, and again they are subsidising this through the credit policy. They aren't a charity, and if people don't read the Ts&Cs, legally the argument is 'tough'.

Plus I have no sympathy with someone who orders some jeans, thinks they got them for free, and is then outraged and shocked when a bill turns up 28 days later. As much as you can rail against the retailer, a far bigger criticism (in my eyes) goes to people who don't take responsibility for their own actions, so meh.

, I think.

You can read the T+C's but the fact is the last time I ordered from them they had standard card payment.

I go through all the faff of their site only to find 20 minutes later that they have changed their business practice.

And who reads the T+C's? And this a pretty big T+C change because it is a fundamental alteration to the whole business model.

Agreed.

I have a next account and have for years, so I just went on there to 'do an order' to see what happens.

You have to set up an account, which it asks for date of birth saying you have to be 18. Thats an indicator for me. After giving my name and address it takes me to step 3.

With my delivery options I don't have to go to the Ts and Cs to read this, which sits above the 'Continue' button.



So I'm less sympathetic than I already wasn't.

You can get a post office bank account whatever your financial status as they don't do credit checks.

This is a lie. There was no option to pay by credit or debit card unless you count them telling me to to pay after delivery.

The guy on the phone didn't even challenge me when I queried this. As you have an older account perhaps you have the option. I had to sign up for a new account as the old account required me to enter a customer number, and fuck knows how I get hold of that.

Your credit rating actually gets adjusted negatively the more credit checks you have done, iirc you have a few done in a short space of time a red flag goes up and you get penalised. Which is just lovely for people shopping about for a new bank or mortgage...

That was through the new account setup. As new accounts set up using email addresses, surely you could log in and pay?

Regardless, I disagree that you can order without being reasonably aware that a credit accoutn has been set up, and your purchases have gone on it.

According to phone droid, not until after delivery.