Be Excellent To Each Other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58

I'm saying it's torture and it can never be condoned, but I'm open to debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

I'm not convinced you'll find someone to debate with on that one, to be honest.

There are some serious nutters out there though:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... rture.html

Yes I know I shouldn't read the fucking Telegraph, but as the old saying goes, keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

I can't condone torture of any kind. My personal reasons are that once you start doing it to them you know that they will start doing it to you. Sure there is a high chance that the "enemy" will be doing it anyway but there is the possibility that if you don't they won't.

My cousin was in Afghanistan and Iraq initial invasions laying down communications, at some stages right at the front of the invasion forces (he went from one to the other and then back to Afghanistan to continue his work on the civilian infrastructure) and as a family member it's bad enough to think of him being captured but with these revelations it's eroded all hope that he wouldn't be tortured.

Doing this could have revealed extra intel but it's at the cost of the people in an active warzone putting there lives on the line and in my opinion is incredibly disrespectful to them*. I'm pissed at the cockhole at wikileaks for the same reason, he could at the very least have blanked out names and anything that could have identified individuals.


*I'm not all pro-war and nationalistic, nor is my cousin - the Australian army paid for his uni education with conditions attached about him serving after, sods law dictated that they started shipping people out to the middle east the day after he finished basic training. He ended up staying in the army because there was such a lack of people who could do what he does and he was so moved by what an absolute shit-heap the Taliban and the war had left Afghanistan in that he felt it was worth it to stay.

It's torture and obviously so.

But what is interesting is how well the propaganda towards it has worked to shape the debate. I'm sure everyone here would, like me, describe it as "simulated drowning." all those against it call it so during debates and so on. But it clearly isn't. You cant breath and you can only start again when the person pouring water stops. That's drowning.

In the same way its not simulated electrocution if they stop doing it before they die.

It's a genius PR move and whoever came up with the idea of calling it simulated will be going places. The cunt.

I went for it is torture and can never be condoned.

That's not strictly true. I actually mean "I can't think of any circumstances under which it can be condoned."

Heh, if it works, I dont think its too bad compared to say ripping out teeth with a pair of pliers or bamboo shoots under fingernails etc.
I know what Id prefer to receive. Well, obviously none of the above, but...

The first wikileaks release was 400,000 documents and the rumoured next one is several million. I'm not convinces they could meaningfully blank out names across that many.

Definitely torture and not something that should be condoned in any circumstance.

Did anyone see the video of the Vanity Fair reporter who agreed to be waterboarded in the name of SCIENCE? It was all in a fairly real "simulation", i.e. the torturers were dressed up as you imagine they would be in some dingy dungeon, with the table constructed out of rickety wood etc.

They gave him two metal batons to grip in his hands and explained that if at any point he wanted to end the exercise, he had to let them go. They also gave him a safe word to say to do the same - I guess the batons were a backup because you probably can't say anything when your throat is full of water

They covered his face completely and poured the first bit of water on to his face. It wasn't a huge amount, they just up-ended a bottle of water for a split second, waited a bit then did it again, repeating this motion.

He lasted about 2 seconds before he let go of the metal batons. I've never been tortured myself but I can well imagine that I'd not even make it that long. Definitely shouldn't be condoned.

That'd be the video linked in the first post (And it was Christopher Hitchens, who's a pretty cool dude.)

Tightrope this one. Very difficult to make a choice without mixed feelings coming to mind.

The people being 'tortured' (depending on your stance and views) usually come from countries where people are lined up and shot for not much reason.

They usually come from countries who brutally murder people (women children? doesn't seem to matter) and take out entire villages who don't share their views.

They usually want to kill and destroy as many people as they can.

So what are we supposed to do with them? wrap them in cotton wool and say "there there, you're safe now" and feed them and give them nice warm cosy beds to sleep in?

These people usually have one intention. To fuck us up as much as possible. Water boarding has prevented attacks (god I fucking HATE to sound like G dubbleyer) and saved lives. OUR lives.

What makes this hard is that innocent people will end up suffering (ones that haven't really done fuck all) but then, isn't going to prison for something you didn't do equally as torturous? I'm referring to our justice system. In a way it's absolutely no different. We are punishing people we think have done us wrong and are a threat to our way of living but sometimes they do get put in prison for years for something they didn't do.

I just find it hard to defend the rights of nasty fucking cunts who want to kill people is all.

Sometimes in order to defeat the enemy you must think like the enemy

I think the dictionary is pretty clear on the fact that drowning is to die by liquid suffocation. Not almost die. (That would be almost-drowing).

I saw that video a while ago, and it's one of the things that I can't seem to forget.

The 'dead man's grip' which he loses so quickly. It must have been terrifying.

<---

The dictionary agrees with you, which surprises me. However I would argue that common usage very much disagrees. Drowning is being unable to breath because your lungs/airway is blocked with water. You don't have to die for it to be drowning. It has the same common usage as 'suffocating'.



Including, of course, American and British citizens.



Citation needed. Can you give me a single failed terrorist attack that was foiled as a result of waterboarding? I'll answer it for you, you can't.



If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

My problem with your line of thinking JC (and I know you've said yourself it's a "Tightrope")

If we were to say that it was right to torture someone if we suspected they were possibly going to attack us, would you accept that it was right for, say, yourself to be tortured if another country though you were possibly going to attack them?

Information gained by torture has long been known to be unreliable. The person being tortured just tells you what they think you want to hear. Mainly because they don't actually know anything. But, hey it works for Jack Bauer.

Did they not figure out that physical torture is fairly shite as interrogation techniques go & that they'd be much better breaking them mentally? Folk will tell you anything to stop the pain/certain death, whether it's true or false.

EDIT: Fucking Pundy, you bloody psychic

When in Rome.

I would not visit a country with ideals as old as a neanderthal's nutsack. TBH when people were kidnapped and beheaded all I could think was 'what the fuck were you doing out there?' It's clear that the whole world does not share the views we do in the U.K. They do not see torture as torture, do not respect the rights of women yada ya.

When 9/11 happened things needed to be rethought a little. It was made quite clear that rules were not going to be adhered to because the rules and beliefs of some differ vastly from ours.

I know opinions were thrown around after 9/11 but it was very easy to offer up an opinion if it didn't affect your life. My ex wife and her family lost a family member and people I knew had also lost relatives. I also had to watch firemen pulling pieces of charred body from a pile of rubble whilst giving themselves terrible lung conditions. All the while we were seeing clips from extremists saying that those people deserved it and there were more attacks on the way.

I guess if there was another way to prevent these attacks without getting blood on your hands I would be all for it. Sadly there isn't. WW2 was not won by being nice to people.

It's torture. That video clearly shows how painful and distressing it must be.

Aid workers generally, I believe. Trying to bring a little relief to the population of the country when they needed it the most.

What the shuddering fuck is JC on about? Has he been watching Fox news all night or something?

"We can win this war if we are a bigger, scarier monster than the regime we are fighting."

The latter quote, of course, being one of the Founding Fathers of Waterboarding Central America, Benjamin Franklin.

They don't do it in America though - they just fly them somewhere else to do it.

So that's ok then.

Most of what JohnCoffey said could be echoed by anyone who was effected by terrorist attacks from either side during the troubles in Ireland.

Easy to use torture on someone of a different creed in a dusty country miles away from yours, would we use it on the Irish if it all kicked off again? More chillingly would the bad guys hesitate before using it on civilians to get information now that the precedent has been set?

And how, pray tell, would you break them mentally? with mental torture?

Chinese water torture is not painful and it really doesn't cause any physical harm. It does, however, leave them with mental scars. I don't know what you had in mind for breaking them mentally but please, do tell.

We did before...

But then that's fine because "they're all ginger & eat potatoes & are permanently drunk & hate Britain & want to blow us all up & mortar Downing St/the Queen & don't share our views & have their ideals based in some ancient religion that persecutes certain groups" They have been, it's more about fear & power than information though. However it's an old fashioned way of controlling the masses & most modern forces have realised that the easiest way to get the people onside is to win over their "hearts & minds", hence there's so much effort goes into all the humanitarian stuff that we never really hear about because deid soldiers & kidnappings is more interesting than building/repairing things or providing food & medicine.

I love waterboarding. Jetskiing too - basically all the watersports.

You're getting confused with playing with your rubber ducky in the bath.

Indeed, I hope the next time Pod has been washed to sea he bellows "Help me, I'm in the middle of a process, which if it continues unabated will result in me having been drowned! To death!"

I would argue that it is used to mean that your are dying by liquid suffocation. The fact that the guy doing it to you will stop doesn't mean it's simulated.

How about you do a bit of research yourself for a change? You might end up a bit less ignorant as a result.
For starters here's the current Merkin forces interrogation manual. Two reasons 1) you bum all things American so I thought you'd like it, 2) the MoD one is a bit harder to come by.

Try clarifying then I won't have to waste my time.

Try sooking my plums it's more fun than watching me piss into the wind. All the information you want is there in a handy pdf, enjoy

You wanna be careful pissing in the wind. You'll piss on yourself.

Yes, and the first place to start is to acknowledge that this...



...is complete and utter bollocks. If you think the "enemy" are taken directly from propaganda, it applies. If you actually live in reality, however, those people don't exist.

And for every one of you saying that about the generic "enemy" you fail to even specify, there is an Iraqi orphan saying exactly the same about you.




The only thing that needed to be rethought was security on American internal flights. That attack did not actually change anything about the largely imaginary 'threat' posed to us by terrorism. The only thing that changed was that our governments and media started acting even more oppressive, which is exactly what the attackers wanted. Bin Laden himself stated in no uncertain terms that the purpose of attacks like those was to make sure that the people responsible for invading and oppressing his people would suffer oppression themselves. But of course, all the muppets here heard was our governments screeching about how "THEY ARE JUST EVIL AND HATE US AND KILL US FOR THE HELL OF IT NOW STOP ASKING QUESTIONS YOU ARE WITH US OR AGAINST US".

The fact that ten years later, people are still acting like idiots about those attacks, shows just how great a victory they were. Killing those people did nothing. More people commit suicide every year. It's credulous morons swallowing up binary world view propaganda who are the real 'enemy', because they cause us to play directly into the lunatics' hands.



Yes there is. We've had terrorists of various kinds in the UK for well over 150 years. Detective work and espionage worked fine all that time, and we've had one major attack here since the fabled "9/11", in which about 50 people died. More people die every year by falling down the stairs. Shit. Happens. These things are awful, but they will simply happen sometimes; it's inevitable, and the only way to stop it is to live under a miserable totalitarian state, and I don't know about you, but frankly I'd rather be nailbombed to buggery than live like that.


And as for waterboarding and dictionary definitions, sure, it may not be technically drowning in a scientific sense. However, dear hypothetical pedant, let us revisit the subject after I repeatedly drive my shins into your testicles. What? I'm not technically kicking you in the bollocks at all.

It doesn't sound very nice.

In addition to the moral and political ramifications of being a nation that tortures (even if only via stooges) we've also got to consider another factor; does it work?

And the consensus seems to be that it does not.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2

I agree with pretty much everything said here. Although SA, I think perhaps you meant 7/11?

7/7, you mean?

Nope, I referred to that, just not explicitly:



Also "7/7" makes me cringe even more than "9/11" does.

I'm not going to sit here and multiquote that as it would take far longer than I am prepared to waste my time on.

I've pretty much said what I had to say and, others are welcome to do the same.

I'm entitled to my views and opinions on the subject as it every one else.



Is the part I find hard to believe. I've seen documentaries about MI5 and they're far from simple detectives and spies. They could be seriously nasty cunts. The difference of course is that they were not so brazen about it and didn't tell any one. That's a part of the reason why we have done so well as a small nation, we don't feel the need to go on TV about it and show the whole world what we get up to. Infact right up until the 80s our police force were a nasty bunch of cunts too.

Any way as I said. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

You're entitled to hold whatever opinions you like, certainly, but that doesn't mean they're automatically worth anything.

I acknowledge that MI5 and spies in general can be complete cunts at times though, naturally. That doesn't mean that torture is right, justified, or necessary, and it certainly doesn't mean that they or anyone else should be allowed to act even worse.

Sleep deprivation may be becoming an issue.


I don't really have a problem with it, all major incidents seem to get given a sort of nickname and it's never bothered me.

Yes, but you're not a pedantic twat

Did I say I wanted any one to give a shit?

This is, of course, a pointless discussion any way. There's very little we can do about it apart from call people cunts.

All I know is that since 9/11 the USA has not been attacked again once (barring that sniper) and has foiled many plans of attacks.

Since 7/7 we have not been attacked either. Yes it could be luck and it could be that they just haven't attempted anything else but that wouldn't be quite true. They have been trying and we have been catching them. Actually the US govt are doing more than torture to prevent these things from happening. Here is a classic example of what.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20101127/twl ... f21e0.html

As I said before I totally accept that it is torture. I'm not trying to get around that fact and it sucks.

I have a magic rock that repels muggers. I haven't been mugged for eight years.

Would you like to buy it?

I don't need it. My light saber kicks ass for fending off cunts.

I grew up in London in the 80s, the IRA were always blowing up stuff, and trying to count the amount of times there were bomb alerts would trouble a centepede.

But I remember that once we had a vistor, a relative I think. They were staying with us for the week or somehing. During that time there was an IRA attack, and the next day we were due to be going out somewhere. The guest was scared about still doing this, but my mum said: "We can't let them win, we can't change our lives just because we might get caught up in a terrorist attack, if you are going to worry about being blown up, then you may as well worry about being struck by lightning, or hit by a car" So we went and we didn't die.

I think these days we have lost. The terrorists have won, and it sucks, but as an individual there is not that much you can do about it.

Malc