Be Excellent To Each Other

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The series was shit. The characters were hateful.

I see some thought went into that, mate.

Yeah, I know - bang on, well thought out literary critique, that was.

Disagree entirely - if you think he simply returns to the start of book one at the end, you've completely misread the ending.

As for recycling old plots, he hasn't. He's incorporated stories from older books into the series, but in a completely new way. Personally I liked the return of characters from other books, and it's been obvious that for at least 15 years everything King has written has been connected to the Dark Tower in some way.

As for including himself in the book, in short he didn't. He included a character named Stephen King, who shares some but not all of the character and history of the author. It is made clear that the character Stephen King is NOT the author, he is in an entirely different universe.

In my opinion the ending, where Roland begins his quest again but with one small but vital change, is the only possible one, it means that the Tower stands, basically ensuring the survival of the universe, and along with redemption for the other characters there is the promise of future redemption for Roland

Also, in what sense do you consider the first DarkTower book a "successful short story"? It was a commercially unsucessful novel, and was artistically immature, which is why King rewrote it a few years ago.

Ha - you may have addressed Mr Chris' points, but you totally failed to make any headway against my damning criticism, didn't you?

That's cos I'd not read it when I posted.

And now I have, all I can really think to say is, if you thought that why did you read the whole thing (assuming you did)

Thppp.

Hang on - are you saying that the small change is that the Tower stands (which, surely, it did to start with), or have I missed a change there? If so, what is it and how's it important? I may well have gotten to the end, saw it appeared to be identical to the beginning of Book One and given up in exasperation rather than examining it line by line for a difference.



Sorry, I disagree there. It is recycling, and really does strike me as literary masturbation. There is no earthly reason why the preacher/priest character had to be the guy from that one with the vampires (Salem's Lot, was it?), rather than some new character drawn up specifically for the purpose, other than pure and simple "Look at me! Look at everything I've written! It's so good you want to read about it twice!". Remember he did the same thing with The Regulators/Desperation so he's definitely got form there.



As far as hair splitting goes, I thought that argument of his was up there with a molecule thick strand in a particle collider. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...



I was obviously wrong there, then. I had understood it was a decent story that he liked. However, I'm not sure that takes away from the rest of the argument.

I've not got the books with me to check the exact details, Davydd Grimm has them now, and will probably be along on the thread presently, but basically he picks up the horn that belong to his comrade (Alain or Cuthbert, I can't remember which), that he was supposed to blow at the top of the Tower. This is mentioned in passing several times in the books.

I believe he did it simply because he liked Father Callahan, and wanted to use him again. I agree with that - he's a good character. He's used recurring character a lot in the past, all the books set in Castle Rock have some of the same characters. Also, as one of the main themes of the book is the general "interconnectedness of things", to phrase it rather badly, bringing characters and plots in from other books works, at least for me.

I understand what you mean! For me, it works in the story. It also works outside the story, as a comment on the connection between the Tower and his life, but is done in such a way that it doesn't break the fourth wall, at least not technically.

I think he liked the story, in the sense of plot, but not the way it was written. Just prior to the release of DT6, a substantially rewritten and expanded version of The Gunslinger came out. It's much more in the style of the later books, obviously, so you may not like it. However, if you do decide to reread the series, I would recommend reading that version.

Good thread, Mr Chris, as you can probably tell I like this series quite a lot! It's good to see someone who can dislike something and give good reasons for it.

I faintly remember the horn, yes - did he pick it up after he'd returned to the start of Book One? And why didn't he have it with him when he got to the Tower the first time?

I borrowed the final book from the library, and I only own one or two from the series, so I can't look any of this up myself either!



I suppose I can't argue with that, but something about the way that he used his own stories to illustrate that sat ill with me. Not hugely so, and it only really annoyed me after I'd finished, but it did seem to stick out quite a bit whilst you were reading. I guess what rankled is that drawing in your own works into a new story makes the reader go "Oooh! That's the bit from [book x]!" which sort of spoils the suspension of disbelief a bit.



It did work in the story, I agree, as the basis for their very existence was that they were artifacts of a narrative created by someone else. But as with the use of characters and locations from King's other books, the use of himself as the "god author" just jumped out a bit much - sort of like your car going over an unexpected speed bump whilst you're driving along a pretty country road, if I can use a really not very apt analogy.

The breaking the fourth wall bit I meant was at the ending only, where he was berating the reader.



Oooh, that I didn't know. I shall have to reread it for completeness. Which will then inevitably lead to me rereading the whole series....



See, I didn't really hate it. I just hated the ending. For instance, that book based around the young Roland and Alaine and Cuthbert was jaw droppingly excellent. Which made it all the more annoying that some of the later books were, comparatively speaking, weak.

In that case I'd definitely recommend rereading, there's so many details that reward it.

The point about the horn, I think, is that he left it after the battle where whichever of his comrades was killed, but at the very end of DT7 there's a reference to him having it. I'll grab the book off Davydd today or tomorrow, and check exactly what happened.

Edit - From Wikipedia

Oh no, mate! That's pretty much the entire point of the ending, and (you might say) the whole story.

I'm with SoND with this. I'm too drunk to elaborate, but I have all seven books on my bookshelf if you want me to look anything up.

The 'fourth wall' stuff irritated me at first, mostly the King being in his own book thing. Then I realised that it isn't the Stephen King we know, and that was pretty much when the entire series clicked for me. It's one of the best series of books I've ever read, and I could happily ignore the rest of Kings' work and just read that over and over.

The ending to me is genius, and not at all unexpected; one of the central themes of the story is the 'wheel of ka', and it simply seems that Rolands own wheel is spinning in an ever-decreasing one(of it). Obviously he has been pushed back by the Tower before, but his history implies that every time it happens it is to a point in time closer to the end of the cycle. Having the Horn of Eld may make all the difference in the world, or it may make none. We don't know what was different for Roland last time, or where that cycle began(I assume long before the beginning of the books).

The ending of the seventh book is amazing - taking the whole thing full-circle and ending (just as it began) with the best line he's ever written.

Certainly, after slogging through the whole lot (and about 50% of the series was wholly average), I was perfectly happy with how it finished. In fact, it seems just about the best possible way he could have ended it.

There were no copies of the third one in the series in any library in the borough (though there were about five of the last one in our small branch alone. Thanks, purchasing!), and the last copy had gone missing. The ridiculously gorgeous girl with a riot-stopping smile was looking for it, to no avail. So I bought her a copy, and we went out for a drink and fell in love, even though we knew she'd be leaving the country in four weeks. Not long after that happened she went a bit mad and among other things tried to extort a holiday out of a monk, so I spent the money I'd put aside to visit her on a funsquare superplus and a bunch of games.

I read the end of the last one at her behest and thought the epilogue bit kind of good, but then I didn't have to read ten thousand pages to get to it so there was no disappointment. I would consider reading them but I really don't think I'd have the patience for all the fourth wall shit he threw in that she told me about. Stephen King seems like a nice bloke and can write well and all, but he should really take up pottery or something and let someone else have a crack at the limelight for a bit.

In conclusion, there were no copies of the third one in the series in any library in the borough (though there were about five of the last one in our small branch alone. Thanks, purchasing!) and the last copy had gone missing....

You even included one tiny change for accuracy's sake - good work there.

Well if this isn't the basis of an episode of a sit com I don't know what is.

Drawing of the Three is my favourite.

I liked the Wolves of Calla(h?) and the last one.

It was sad when that badger thing died.

Wizard and Glass for me. There's so much happening, and I love the way it's clear from the beginning exactly what's going to befall Susan Delgado, but all the way through the book I was willing King to change his mind and let her go. That her death affected me so much, despite my knowledge of what was going to happen, was a testament to some damn powerful writing.

The Dark Tower itself is a stunning book, I felt occasionally suffocated and pressured by the sheer weight of the Tower while reading it. I've never read anything else which has put across such an overwhelming sense of dreadful size.

Must... Resist... Obvious... Joke...

Sorry to dredge this thread up from the past, but I found some news, which is both good and bad

Abrams Opts out of Dark Tower Film

Ah... it might have been good as a series. BUT!

Fucking excellent. We've dodged that bastard bullet. I can't imagine anyone I'd like less for Deschain. I reckon Clink could still do it, anyway.

Wow, I was on good form with this one. Those were the days, eh, readers?

I was on better form. Succinct is the key, see.

Cock.

Hey, you're right!

Except as Grim... noted, you seemed to miss the whole point of the series and the ending.

Here's a fact: The last post in this thread was made before I even joined the forum. No wonder I missed it the first time around.

For what it's worth, I loved the ending the The Dark Tower and hated 'Wizard and Glass'. Fucking melodrama about stupid kids and witches? No ta, SK. If I read through these again (and I'll have to, I read the original version of the The Gunslinger), I may just skip over that one.

Which only goes to reinforce my incredibly well written critique of King's writing style - he's such a completely onanastic cock that he even managed to obscure his own point in his literary jizz.

I have only read the first in the series... I might pick up the rest some day

I liked King's portrayal of an man with moss growing out of him in Creepshow.

The Dark Tower series is as close to unfilmable as anything I can think of. I mean, if Hollywood couldn't make fucking Dreamcatcher without changing the plot so much that it was almost a different story, what hope does anyone have of doing The Dark Tower justice? Also, most film adaptations of King's work do middling box-office business at best. Odds-on the first film would bomb and the rest would never get made.

Well, I think I've given up with this. I'm about 80% of the way through volume III and I just cannot stand any more of King's mediocre prose and shallow characters; it all reminds me rather too much of Dan Brown. By comparison, I picked up Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro on the plane to America and read non-stop for five hours.

This is still a great thread.

Especially my posts. Scathing literary criticism.

Hello me. That's at about exactly the same point where I gave up. I read the summary of how it ended and was glad I had given up long before then.

How far into DaVinci code did you make it? I got about 40% into that before I realised it was a rubbish shareware adventure game from the 1990's turned into a book.

About seven pages.

Wizard and glass can fuck off. Still.

I reread the first one in its adjusted form and it makes more sense in context

Oddly, earlier this week, I started reading them all again.

Mmmm, I've been tempted to start again recently, too.

The bit with Eddie trying to get off the plane with the smack is still some grade A storytelling.

Agreed. I think Dot3 is actually my favourite of the whole lot.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/63749/2 ... hrough.htm
If you tell it a joke, does it asplode?

IDGI.

Ooh, there are Dark Tower graphic novels.

Should have paid attention to what thread it was in, I guess.