Be Excellent To Each Other

Have we done this yet?

I assume you've all heard about the crazy pastor of a church in Florida (congregation approx 50) who is planning to burn a big pile of Korans* on Saturday, as some sort of big confused "fuck you" to Islamic extremists, or maybe just Muslims, over the 11 September attacks on New York and, it seems, the building of a "mosque" at Ground Zero^TM (although of course it's not any such thing, as it's neither a mosque nor at Ground Zero^TM, and it's on the site of an existing Islamic centre anyway).

He's had the Defence Secretary calling him, the President making statements, the leader of Indonesia writing to Obama to get him to stop, General Patreus saying it will put American soldiers at risk and so on and so on.

Now, fair enough that burning someone's holy book is a little bit rude, but I'm not sure it entirely justifies the protesters in Pakistan burning an American flag (and if you know anything about Americans and their flag, you'll know how much this pisses them off. They don't even like their flags touching the ground) and displaying a sign in English reading: "If Qur'an is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America." Or in Afghanistan the crowd of 4,000 people holding a protest near Kabul, with some burning US flags and chanting "death to the Christians.".

Is the Obama administration a little too worried about the sensitivities of Islamic crazies? I would guess the sort of people who would attack American troops in Afghanistan over this would have done so anyway. And if someone is that fucking nuts that someone burning your made up religious text of choice is enough to make you want to walk away from your normal life as a peace loving bank clerk and kill them, then, frankly, fuck them.

Discuss.




*Kierans would have created less controversy, I'm sure. Spelling's a wonderful thing.

He's not going ahead now.

Fucking hell, they only wanted a Harvest for the World FFS.

It's only "on hold" now, not cancelled, as, apparently, it turned out the imam he spoke to lied to him about the Ground Zero^TM mosque being cancelled.

Also, I assume he's realised the book burning would have clashed with his Civil War reenactments.

The mosque at Ground Zero, that's not a mosque and not at Ground Zero.

Idiot attention-seeking pastor in middle of nowhere kicks up media shitstorm for attention. I really don't know why the press and TV have given him all this free airtime.

Farb!

I would imagine it's partly to do with the fact that Fox News thought it'd be funny to stick one up the Muslims after their EVIL PLANS FOR A DISRESPECTFUL MOSQUE SOMEWHERE IN NEW YORK.



Repetition!

And an excuse to show pictures of a handful of attention-seeking crazy Foreigns getting angry and burning a flag. Can't they just use library footage for the two-minute hate?

Quite. Also, didn't they just already solve the problem by not allowing him a license for a bonfire? If he does it anyway, fine his crazy-arse church's tits off (note - they're all crazies. This isn't the first such stunt they've tried. They give the Westboro Rapists a run for their money).

What are the odds that the fine is about £100?

All of this makes me mad.

This is why we sent the religious crazies to the colonies in the first place. Who knew that 200 years later, the lunatics would have the keys to the asylum?

That it is not 'at' ground zero is true enough, but I'm not sure this whole 'not a mosque' bit. As far as I understand it is an Islamic community centre comprising a mosque, cafe, library, (etc).

If someone published plans to build a sports centre in Neasden with a swimming pool, and I said 'there's going to be a swimming pool in Neasden', folks wouldn't say 'it's not a swimming pool.'

Steady on.

WTF

BURN IT WITH FIRE

Yeah, but a mosque is, basically, just a big room.

You're basically, just a big room.

But, who cares if they build a mosque at Ground Zero? The attack wasn't by *muslims*, it was by *mentals*. The Oklahoma bombings were done by a Catholic, but they wouldn't object to a church being built there, would they?

Like a swimming pool is a big puddle?

Your mums a big womb.

Wait.

I could go burn a book in my back garden and no-one would know/give a shit. Just because some mental has had news coverage then it's a big deal. Blame fox or nbc or whoever gave this loon airtime.

The biggest problem is the lack of scope, there are plenty more religious books that ought to be burnt, and then maybe we can all move on from this silliness.

I see what you're saying but, I think they're concerned that this sort of thing could be used to portray us all as Islam-hating, Koran-burning nutters, just as the footage of flag burning etc can lead many people to believe that the whole of the middle east is populated by fundamentalists.

Your point? It's a big room made to be a mosque.

I think they should be allowed to build their centre wherever the planning laws allow, but as the planners have themselves sad 'we want to build an Islamic centre containing a mosque', and people have asked 'will it contain a mosque?' to which they have answered 'yes it will contain a mosque', I keep wondering about the insistence of people saying 'there will be no mosque'.

I think the best way of putting it is upfront:

It's not AT ground zero, but in the general vicinity. It's an Islamic centre with a mosque. You don't like it? Tough. Hard cheese. Get over it.

Heck, 70 years ago these guys were probably raving about "Papish plots" and the "evils of popery" and burning Catholic prayer books. They just need a bunch of "others" to latch onto and blame for everything.

Let the Muslims take the flack, aslong as we protect the Jedi we guarantee the safety of our star system.

Well, mainly that any room could be used as a mosque. What the Fox News crazies are whipping up is an idea that there's some big massive tower with minarets and friezes of airplanes hitting Americans.

That said, I had understood from The Daily Show that it wasn't actually a mosque they were proposing. Happy to be corrected, though, which leads us on to:


Absolutely agreed! Even if the mosque has a massive tower and big minarets, although I'd draw the line at the friezes.



Yeah, I agree there, but then again, the crazies already see us like that. The sensible people will see that this is just one guy, same as we see that not all Muslims are blowing up London.

If you listen carefully, what he actually said was the Iman lied to him. I think he's been talking to the wrong person.

x the entire wretched history of humanity

I think the pastor should turn his attention to the infidelities of the Mormon Church and hold an 'International Lose The Golden Plates' Day, eat a sacred cow to annoy the Hindus, and then burn a DC10 to piss off the Hubbitites.

People's views change, though. Often informed by what they see on telly. I find the whole thing rather worrying really, I can see this pastor getting a much larger group of supporters off the back of this (doubtless citing ideals such as freedom of expression etc, just as the BNP do here to justify spreading their hate) with many of them trying to up the ante in trying to piss off Muslims.

You know what, you're right. I'm being far too charitable about the average human's intellect and basic human deceny.

I think that a supposedly religious man coming up with an idea like this is pretty terrible and he should be struck off from whatever religion it is he claims to represent. The only reason this probably would not happen is because the Vatican (if he is a catholic, I'm not sure?) knows they can't afford to alienate the bible belt in america.
It is a bit frustrating to see it get so much airtime but I suppose if it didn't and it was then reported after the event, the impact could be much worse. At least just now other nations can see how much most regular thinking people are against this.

I can totally understand the reactions of Muslims in areas which are affected by the war. According to news reports there are a lot of them who don't like the Americans being there and for them to watch as Americans complain about a mosque at ground zero and then decide to burn their holy book it must feel like a kick in the teeth. All something like this does is radicalise young Muslims living in places affected by war and possible even living in places like America who are sick of seeing their religion abused. which is a terrible shame but also understandable when you see how supposedly Christian people act under the name of their God.



From the reports I have heard, there has been a national backlash against it however there have also been suggestions of support from other areas within America. I don't think it really matter what the sensible people see, it is what the other people who share his feelings see. Especially in a place like america where they value free speech so highly. will there be people who dont agree with what he is doing but dont really disagree either but decide to support him since they dont like the fact he is being attacked for it?
There are plenty of people in america who I'm sure would be considered extremists if they were in a country with an invading force and citizens taking arms.

Hold on. This is nonsense. Any room can be used as a church, any room can be used as an English Lit classroom, any room can be used as a brothel. But if someone says the are going to build a church, people don't say 'nah, it's just a room'. They're building a school. Nah, just 'rooms'.

A church doesn't have to have a massive spire topped with a 20ft high cross to be a church as without one it's just a room, just as a mosque doesn't need a big dome and minarets to be a mosque.

I think this can be traced back to Gideon's misguided move into other religious texts. They've got to get rid of the surplus stock somehow.

No, it's not nonsense. If you have a building that is being built specifically for half a dozen different functions, it's nonsense to call the whole building by just one of those. Particularly if one of those functions could be carried out in any building at all, whatever you called it. The nutjob Right in America may as well be getting upset about the nearby office blocks with Muslim prayer rooms in them, which is, basically, exactly the same principle.

Bear in mind we're arguing for no purpose here, of course.

That reminds me, it's almost the 'they're banning Christmas' season again. I always look forward it.

No, just because it is not the ONLY function, does not mean it does not have that function. Just as I was saying about the swimming pool in the sports centre. The swimming pool is part of the sports centre as the mosque is part of the Islamic centre.

If people can say 'there's finally going to be a swimming pool in Neasden' then people can say 'there's going to be a mosque in _________'

('__________') because, as people have said, it is not at ground zero.

W're all looking forward to Winterval now.

I do see what you're saying, but the complaint has been that "they're building a mosque". They're not. They're building a sports centre with a swimming pool in it.

Anyway, I want to go and look for some new knitwear at Marks & Spencers now.

No, there is no Marks & Spencers, it's just a big room, part of Brent Cross Shopping Centre. Any big room can be a Marks & Spencers.

They are building a mosque. They are (not, really) building a swimming pool. The mosque happens to be part of a larger complex just as the swimming pool happens to be part of a larger complex.

That is all.

I'm not actually going to M&S, as Brent Cross is 300 miles away, just in case anyone was bored and up for a little bit of stalker-age.

I am, however, going to go for a picnic in the rain. Or might just buy some chips and eat them under the shelter on the porch of the church big room.

Amusing though it is, your analogy is broken, as a room can only be an M&S when it is filled with underwear and yummy food. Whereas any room can be a swimming pool merely by leaving the tap on. Or a mosque by putting an imam and some worshippers in it.

Or am I being wholly ignorant, and mosques have to be blessed or consecrated or whatever the equivalent is?

When I hear "mosque" I think of a big building with minarets, towers, and grand architecture, and I believe I'm perfectly average in that regard. When applied to Park 51, this mental image is inaccurate (it'll look like this) and inflammatory, even if it's technically correct as it does include, as one of its dozen or so features, a prayer hall. I think the phrase "mosque" is best avoided in this context for that reason. The New York Times and AP agree with me.

Alright, listen up, people. Our fugitive has been on the run for ninety minutes. Average foot speed over uneven ground barring injuries is 4 miles per hour. That gives us a radius of six miles. What I want from each and every one of you is a hard-target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse in that area. Checkpoints go up at fifteen miles.

Suspect is wearing multicoloured balaclava [static]... with monkey ears!

Can't we just kill the pastor?

Someone on Twitter suggest we burn him at the stake on a bonfire made of Korans. Something for everyone then.

Oh, we're arguing "Mosque" semantics...

I agree with Gaywood's post.

edit: Especially the escaped Amazon Kindle bit.

Oooh!