The re-sale of digital media items

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 26276

I think we have touched on this subject before, but not yet put it fully under the microscope.

What (if any) are the benefits of digital download-able media over media delivered in a hard copy format?

Instant delivery is a benefit. Needing no physical storage space (other than the device that the file is stored on) is another. Kindness to the environment is a third. These are the three reasons most often given to why digital magazine subscriptions are preferred by their readers over a paper copy on the Ravelry forums. All I can see are nagatives, though.

Firstly, the digital mag producers ( think it used to be Zinio, but they have now changed), or the magazine writers, are useless at getting the new edition up on time - it often appears a week or so after the paper copy has been delivered.

Secondly (and I realise that this has specific relevance for a knitting magazine and ma not apply to, say, gaming magazine) to use much of the magazine you have to have a paper copy - to put sticky notes on, to mark your place - do you don't need to refer to the screen every five seconds. If you do decide to read a pattern only from the screen then knitting a 80+ hour jumper is going to use quite a lot of electricity, so reading from the screen uses quite a lot of energy. To print onto paper, with magazines so full of pictures, takes a lot of expensive printer ink.

Thirdly, The magazines are only available to read via a piece of clunky, HORRIBLE installed software, which you can only install onto two devices, and isn't available for your iphones, or e-book readers, etc, so whereas I can put my magazine in a bag and take it with me on teh train, you can't do that with the magazine.

The digital subscription is, strangely, more expensive than a paper subscription on the one magazine I know most about.

But, I think most importantly - I have subscribed since issue one. At least two of the issues are now worth £15+, all are worth at least their original cover price. When I decide I no longer want my magazines, they still have value.

With the digital magazine example, each copy is registered to work only with the software registered to a particular device, so you can't sell it on for use by others, anyway. But what about other digital media?

What are the rules about MP3s, digitally downloaded games and films, and e-books? What is the legal status of these regarding re-sale? Is it possible to re-sell them at all?

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16675

Mimi wrote:

What are the rules about MP3s, digitally downloaded games and films, and e-books? What is the legal status of these regarding re-sale? Is it possible to re-sell them at all?

I guess it just depends on the terms of the purchase, so usually it's not possible to re-sell them.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Green Man Gaming is a games download service that lets you trade games in, but it's actually a bit of a con.

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14525

We need a can of worms dimlie :-)

An extra few to add to your list of negatives more about magazines but applicable for other things.

1) You cant really read your ebook reader in the bath
2) You cant *loan* your copy on your e-reader to a friend , or easily pass them around other people
3) Although the 'zoom' on digital copies is good , some images and pictures can be of poorer quality than the actual print image.
4) You *can* read your paper copy in the even of a power failure or a zombie apocalypse or the end of the world

Finally you cant burn your ebook reader to keep cold if your stuck in the snow (or at least you wouldnt want to breathe the fumes)

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 26276

markg wrote:

Mimi wrote:

What are the rules about MP3s, digitally downloaded games and films, and e-books? What is the legal status of these regarding re-sale? Is it possible to re-sell them at all?

I guess it just depends on the terms of the purchase, so usually it's not possible to re-sell them.

So this is decided by the publisher, rather than a blanket 'rule'?

Wullie · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 6183

Mimi wrote:

So this is decided by the publisher, rather than a blanket 'rule'?

Yup, nae blanket rules.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Well there's the overriding doctrine of exhaustion of rights, but that's another story.

Suffice to say, generally yeah, it's up to the publisher.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49252

One thing I will say, Mimi, is that most of your objections aren't something inherently bad about non-physical media, but are instead limitations of the way the publisher in question are going about it. There's certainly no reason for it to be more expensive, or made available late. There's also no reason why they would need to use proprietary software for it, when there are many other options available.

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14525

Craster wrote:

One thing I will say, Mimi, is that most of your objections aren't something inherently bad about non-physical media, but are instead limitations of the way the publisher in question are going about it. There's certainly no reason for it to be more expensive, or made available late. There's also no reason why they would need to use proprietary software for it, when there are many other options available.

These are definetly the more 'stupid' things they do

It has got to be cheaper for them to produce and distribute non-physical media so why does it generally cost the exact same or sometimes even more ? (greed ?)

Having it available early doesnt 'cost' them anything either and the digital copy has to be avaialble because its what they will use to prepare the physical one so why do they keep it held back ? (they dont want to upset their current model?)

Proprietary software and limitations on how many copies / what you can view it with are simply a knee jerk reaction to piracy - I dont think it really works as what happens is the security is 'broken' or someone just gets the physical copy and 'remakes' a digital copy of it from there (remember that harry potter book that someone ended up just taking digital photographs of each page?)

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 26276

Craster wrote:

One thing I will say, Mimi, is that most of your objections aren't something inherently bad about non-physical media, but are instead limitations of the way the publisher in question are going about it. There's certainly no reason for it to be more expensive, or made available late. There's also no reason why they would need to use proprietary software for it, when there are many other options available.

Yes, I do understand that - I suppose the examples I gave are the way that the publishers (in the case of the magazines, for example) are going about things, rather than teh ways that they could be going about them. After all, they could say - once you've finished reading this, you're free to email it to a friend as long as you delete it from your hard-drive, but just because it is technologically possible to do this, doesn't mean that it's ever going to happen!

I gave my examples by way of which things appear to be happening. Of course, not all examples will be the same, but in the case I give the magazine subscription seems like a bad deal, considering the limitations and no re-sale value. Oh, and the higher price point.

Malc · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 13:23

Random example of another magazine (New Scientist)

To buy every edition of this at a shop for a year would be: £173.40
You can save 20% by subscribing, so the price is £137.00 (this gives you access to the online version too)
Or you can do electronic version only which is $51.00 (which by my mental maths is about £30)

Not quite sure on the limitations of that as part of their (They use News Stand) systems seem down for maintanence

Malc

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 26276

Well, that makes much more sense as a model to give a reason for digitally subscribing. The much cheaper price would balance out many of the negatives.

Malc · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 13:52

NewsStand's Terms and stuff wrote:

The price of publications purchased from the NewsStand website entitles you to download one copy of the periodical (or one copy of each issue in a subscription) for personal use only. Some publishers may allow you to download a second copy to another computer at a price set by the publisher. If you delete a publication from your system and later wish to re-download it, you must purchase a replacement copy at the publisher’s price. Each publisher determines the length of time a downloaded publication is available for viewing on a user’s PC. Once that time expires, you will no longer be able to view that issue.

Edit to Add - They also seem to have something called ibrowse which allows you to view stuff in a browser.

Malc

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14525

If thats correct then thats really what a lot of us want out of a digital magazine , however from where I'm sitting the majority are more expensive for the digital copy , often come late (or more likely at 'on shop shelf day' whereas subscribers get them about a week before) and have limits on what you can do with them.

I was going to ask if anyone has actually found a DRM system which 'works' but i guess that really depends on what the publisher wants to get out of the system and if thats annoying customers and preventing casual piracy that may be viewed as a success for them.

One plus for the physical item is that even 'new' they will be stacked up in a shop somewhere and if they dont sell the shop will want the space back so will start to cut back more and more on the price , leading to some good deals.

In the past digital editions have never done this - however around a year or so ago Steem and others started to have 'stock clearing sales' (lovely terminology - its a digital copy it takes up no 'space' and you still have the copy afterwards) which have been very popular , and selling something 'older' digitally for a really low price gives them loads of money for something which was basically earning them nothing.

Going back to Mimi's knitting example - I think it would be great if they sold the 'old' editions of the magazine at a reduced price - say buy them as they came out for X , but buy all of the magazines from ..... 3 years ago for 2X

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16675

I think when e-reader thingies become more ubiquitous then magazine publishers will want to cash in. Right now probably what they mostly see is a threat rather than an opportunity, though.

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14525

markg wrote:

I think when e-reader thingies become more ubiquitous then magazine publishers will want to cash in. Right now probably what they mostly see is a threat rather than an opportunity, though.

Agreed , and thats because its a large change in the market and they see how 'bad' others have done when the whole system goes through this - the music and movie industry for example

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 16:16

zaphod79 wrote:

We need a can of worms dimlie :-)

An extra few to add to your list of negatives more about magazines but applicable for other things.

1) You cant really read your ebook reader in the bath

You can read ebooks in the bath in the same way as you read normal books - if you drop them, they can get ruined. However, you can get waterproof cases for ebook readers (the Kindle, at least, not looked at others), and if you do so they're actually more suitable for reading at bath time.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16675

Do people really read in the bath? How long can you actually read for before the water starts going cold anyway?

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 26276

markg wrote:

Do people really read in the bath? How long can you actually read for before the water starts going cold anyway?

Yo have a hot tap on the bath, yes? Top-ups, dear man.

I have a little Lego speaker for my iPod, and listen to audiobooks in the bath. I think this is the best form of bath-reading.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16675

Yeah I guess, I hate baths anyway I always seem to be either too hot or too cold.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 20:24

I just hate sitting in a soup of my own dead skin.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:33

myoptikakaka wrote:

I just hate sitting in a soup of my own dead skin.

I always have a shower after...

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6634

KovacsC wrote:

myoptikakaka wrote:

I just hate sitting in a soup of my own dead skin.

I always have a shower after...

Same here - I have a bath to chill out or bathe my aching muscles after a hard day at the coal face. I have a shower to actually clean myself.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... censes.ars

US court upholds EULA for AutoCAD.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:47

Interesting.... does that really effect anything?

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49252

Actually, yes. In theory they are saying that the doctrine of first sale does not apply for software, as you are licensing its use, not owning it. If pushed to extremes, it may mean that the resale of any kind of software becomes illegal - and it wouldn't be hard to imagine that being extended to other things like music and films.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:51

I thought that was alwaus teh case, unless you bought the physical media (not AutoCad)..

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49252

This applies whether you buy the physical media or not. They are saying that you can't resell it, because you only have a license for your use of it, which is non-transferrable.

MaliA · **Posted:** Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:54

I think they are saying that architect's firm purchased the licence to use the software, and, as such, it wasn't Mr CarBootSale's to sell so that's why the auctions were shut down. They then went on to define what a licence is. I'm not overly worried.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:57

I knwo AutoCad had always been funny, used to have to use a Dongle etc..

I did not think you coudl trnasfer licenses anyway...

I can;t see extendign to physical films or music, as you can pass those arround..

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49252

KovacsC wrote:

I knwo AutoCad had always been funny, used to have to use a Dongle etc..

I did not think you coudl trnasfer licenses anyway...

I can;t see extendign to physical films or music, as you can pass those arround..

The fact that it's AutoCAD is largely irrelevant. The people pushing for a verdict in the favour of the software vendor included Google, McAfee, Oracle, and the MPAA. Those folks aren't interested in a one-off win for Autodesk.

It has always been previously the case that restrictive terms in EULAs have been unenforceable on the basis that the doctrine of first sale provides a solid right to be able to resell software you've purchased. This ruling now indicates that the DoFS doesn't apply to licensed software.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:18

I take it is USA at the moment, before it goes world wide?

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49252

Oh, yes - and it'll undoubtedly fly round appeals courts a few dozen times.

Grim... · **Posted:** Tue Sep 14, 2010 14:47

Sort of relatedly, I have this.

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

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4. hexadecimal numbers.
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8. the source KSV. Add together those twenty rows of the matrix
9. that correspond to the ones in the KSV (with the lowest bit
10. in the KSV corresponding to the first row), taking all elements
11. modulo two to the power of fifty-six; this is the source
12. private key.
13.
14. To generate a sink key, do the same, but with the transposed
15. matrix.
16.
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19. 82592e77a204a8 146a6970e3c4a1 f43a81dc36eff7 568b44f60c79f5 bb606d7fe87dd6
20. 1b91b9b73c68f9 f31c6aeef81de6 9a9cc14469a037 a480bc978970a6 997f729d0a1a39
21. b3b9accda43860 f9d45a5bf64a1d 180a1013ba5023 42b73df2d33112 851f2c4d21b05e
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zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14525

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