Be Excellent To Each Other

So, the typical discussions are occurring in the media and public discussion following this week's shooting spree. Should the government do what they did following Hungerford and Dunblaine and follow up by banning the private use of shotguns? Would a ban on shotguns have any effect on the sort of "gun owning nutter goes on rampage" thing that happened earlier in the week?

I know this forum has among its number hippies (Kalmar), licensed shotgun owners (Grim...?), and nutters (MaliA), so would be interested in people's thoughts.

It might well have a bit of an effect but these things so rare anyway and so many people enjoy shooting that I don't think banning them would be justified. Maybe try a bit harder to weed out the nutters but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that would have made much difference to what happened the other day.

No. The laws are extremely tight as they are. It's a freak event which cannot be legislated for, as Mr Cameron rightly pointed out. Why not ban bleach, or knives?

It does strikes me as a bit odd that antiquated muzzle-loading weapons are treated the same as other kinds of shotgun - to handle the gunpowder needed to fire my musket I need a separate license and I'm only allowed to be issued it when required: I can't take it home (although I'd keep my hat away from a fire, just in case there are residues)

I do indeed have a shotgun licence, although I can't keep a gun on my current premises.

I know I'm stating the obvious, but 99.9% of gun owners are perfectly good, law-abiding people. Maybe they use them to shoot animals for fun, maybe shooting animals to keep their numbers down, maybe they shoot at targets.

For the latter (whether the targets are static for rifle-range shooting, or moving like clay pigeons) you could argue that an individual doesn't need their own gun, as the gun club will be able to provide one, in the same manner as a golf course will be able to provide you with clubs. But guns (much like clubs, I'd imagine) are individual things - I personally like mine a little heavier at the back (fnar) with a light trigger, so there is at least a good reason to possess your own weapon.

Handguns were banned (after Dunblaine, I think), and that apparently made fuck-all difference to the number of illegal ones about. So I'd say no, don't ban shotguns.

As an aside, the bad man in this case did possess a firearms licence, which shouldn't have been possible as he is an ex-convict, but hey-ho.

I object to this strongly as I've a certificate and everything to prove I'm not.

There's no blanket rule on that. Or are you just saying that there should be?

Is there not?
Maybe a certain type of crime means you won't get one?

I'm sure there's something.

Someone I know got done for drink driving and had his shotgun licence revoked. Apparently, getting it back is mega time and effort and money. So now he doesn't drive or shoot and just drinks.

I wouldn't mind a shotgun, but I honestly cannot be arsed to go through the rigmorale of sorting out all the stuff involved, so it's on the back burner until mrsA lets me.

It's also a cultural thing. Because guns aren't commonplace here, there's an air of mystique about them which affects people's judgement about what they are and what they can/cannot do. For example, until I started re-enacting, I had never handled a gun or been around people who did (the day out with the air rifles in the Scouts doesn't count). I had to be taught, from scratch, basic weapon safety: the entire concept was alien to me. It was never something that I was introduced to from a young age.

It's mostly sensible stuff, like a secure place to store it and all that.

FTFY.

Arm everybody. The country is overpopulated anyway.

Oh, you were being serious. OK, I think the laws are draconian enough as they are. You can't legislate for people like Derek Bird or whatever he was called.

I'd store mine in a chained to the back wall of a locked cabinet in a locked loft. I dunno if this is how it is meant to be done, but it takes me fucking forever to get into the loft anyway, so any shooting spree I might which to embark on will require planning and 15 minutes worth of prior effort to retrieve said firearm, by which time I'll have lost interest and fucked off down the pub instead.

Surely a car could be considered a deadly weapon?

And then as if by magic -





I've lived in a country where pretty much all guns are legal and can be given to any body. Nobody I knew was ever shot or had to shoot at somebody.

As for the gun debate? Well, as Chef once said when asked about assisted suicide - I don't wanna touch that with a 40ft pole . It's an age old argument and has been done to death.

Well I'm sure this won't come as a surprise, but I personally don't think there's much valid cause for people to own shotguns, and that the risks outweigh the benefits.

The availability of them is surely increased by the fact that they can be legally owned, and as such they are the weapon of choice for sticking up garages and post offices.

Legitimate ownership also does put them into the hands of a large number of people, and some fraction of those will go mental at some point. You can argue "but he'd have found another way to kill if he hadn't had guns", but not as easily and indiscriminately I would say.

Having a cupboard full of lethal weapons is also likely to lead to fantasies of going on a rampage with them, if perhaps only in a zombie populated landscape.

So in summary, I would be happy if they were banned on general principles.
Whether it would save many lives or not, I don't know, and I wouldn't ban them purely to possibly affect that number or as a knee-jerk reaction.

That's defiantly not true. While certain muzzle-loading muskets and other historical things are allowed (and stupidly big sporting 'handguns') you can't own, say, a revolver or a semi-auto.

Until you become lazy and stop putting it up in your loft.
Oh, and if you are considering a case, an extra-long one might be helpful *whistles innocently*

It has to be fixed to the wall, I'm not sure a chain would be enough.


I think that's sawn-off shotguns, which are illegal.

See also alcohol, smoking and any other item for pleasure. Clay pigeon shooting is fun and is very enjoyable.

True, but they've still been nicked from a farm and then hacksawed off, haven't they. A relatives garage has been held up more than once with said weaponry..

Hmm. I know two folk that have recently bought licensed handguns, I'll double check though.

Thought you weren't going to get involvedstart making spurious straw-men arguments?

Well, semi-auto, too. Are there any handguns that aren't automatic or semi-auto? Other than flare guns?

I think revolvers where each chamber has to be manually filled with powder and ball are acceptable: I've certainly fired one in the country at a range.

EDIT: took bloody ages to load though

I think you're all right as long as you don't use a speedloader (ie. you have to put the bullets in by hand).

Not sure, though.

On the pistol ban, WikiWikiWah says

I do wonder what they're going to do in 2012 for the various pistol-based Olympic sports.

It's a matter of responsibility. We hear from time to time about people, especially children, being accidentally shot but whilst it's a tragedy, I tend to wonder why the hell they were leaving live weapons in an accessible place. It's like leaving the engine running in a car.

On the two occasions I've live-fired, as opposed to just burn powder, I've always felt a sense of dread when I've loaded, knowing that whatever happens next will be my responsibility, and nobody else's. I would not spend time with people who are likely to dick around with guns, and neither would the gun-owners I know.

(If I carry on this line of argument I'll end up arguing for rifle training in primary schools or something, so I think I'll end here )

Somewhat relatedly, I am (for the moment, at least) against the Grimlet having toy guns to play with. I was rather angry with his nursery when he came home, picked up a sort-of-gun-shaped stack of Duplo and started going 'pew pew', as it turns out they encourage gun-fights with their toys.

When he's old enough (five or six or so) he can come out shooting with me whenever he wants. I can't get it into my head that they make good toys, though.

Right, turns out it's a long barrelled revolver that one of them has. They're controlled under the same laws as rifles apparently.

In my Apocolypse cupboard I have a chainsaw, an axe and a Possessed Demon Samurai Sword. I reckon if I wante dto go menkles I could score better than Birdie with those in the town centre on a Saturday afternoon. Or hell, go to one of those kids play places.

I wasn't allowed toy guns through my childhood.

My Nana was in Whitehaven when this happened. She spent the afternoon being locked in the bank for her safety (that was where she was when news got out about the shooting).

She was there in the first place because her 14 year old relative was killed in the school bus crash a couple of weeks ago.

She is a Daily Mail reader, I wonder what her take on this will be.

The current favoured way of getting around the ban on handguns is to attach a metal pole to the pistol grip that goes back towards your shoulder and acts as a stock, thus making the entire firearm longer than the definition of "handgun".

That's how I fired the .44 Mag revolver a few years ago.

As for 2012, I believe that there is going to be special dispensation for the two weeks (or whatever) that the games are on, but until that point (and after it) they are still illegal and anyone wishing to practice must do so out of the country. So Team GB is going to be at a tremendous disadvantage from the off, then.

Nothing new there, then.

I think they get special licences, though.

So what's the current legislation on rifles, then?

I wasn't allowed toy dolls through my childhood (not even Action Man).

I grew up in a very pro-gun household. Parents were champion marksmen for the county, two of my brothers regularly shot .22LR, we used to spend the two weeks at the end of July at the Imperial Meeting at Bisley, without fail every year.

BUT I WANTED MY ACTION MAN.

Craster: The only rifles that are currently still legal are centre-fire rifles that are bolt/lever-action, and rimfire smallbore rifles that are bolt/lever-action or are semi-automatic. To be semi-auto and legal I believe they need to be .22LR calibre and with a magazine capacity of less than 5 rounds (may be 10, not sure, may not even be a limit).

That would seem to disagree with your comment on putting a stock on a .44 magnum making it fall under rifle legislation.

I found a small handful of 0.22 rifle bullets on the farm when I was a kid, about 12 or so. I also found a piece of thick walled hydraulic pipe into which they fitted perfectly. I test-fired one by holding the pipe in a vice and hitting the end of the bullet with a hammer. It made a ridiculously loud bang and a small hole in the end of the shed.
I then suddenly realised how stupid all this was, buried the remaining bullets in the field, and drilled a larger hole in the shed to disguise the bullet hole.

Guns'r'bad mmm'kay?

LONG-BARRELLED PISTOLS

104. The Government noted the development of long-barrelled pistols and revolvers for target shooting. Press reports in mid-March highlighted the importation from United States suppliers of long-barrelled .44 Magnum revolvers. [178] Such revolvers escape prohibition under the 1997 Acts by their overall length, which exceeds 60 cm, or their barrel length, which may exceed 30cm. They are subject to full section1 controls and thus an applicant for a certificate to use one of these weapons must demonstrate his fitness to own a firearm and show a good reason for possession.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 5/9506.htm (It's from 2000, but I can't find any changes in the law)

As far as rifle laws, look under section 1 firearms.

So you don't want this man round for afternoon tea?*

*I am joking dude.

Been dead for years ftfy

Michael Moore will be dead pleased (pardon the pun).

Indeed - I can only surmise that revolvers are excepted from the legislation also.

True, but how many kids play soldiers / cowboys / power rangers / police / spys / generic male hero who shoots.

It is part of growin up to emulate comic/tv/film chars..

It seems kinda natural.. I played wth toy guns / lasers as a kid. Also with action men, not sure what my point is...

Guns don't kill people. Rappers do.

So do angry geese.

That is good parenting. I would do pretty much the same (apart from the going out shooting bit) if I ever had any male offspring.

That said, kids have grown up playing cowboys and indians for decades, and we're not all crazy gun nuts.

Hmmm.

I got really bothered when First Born started asking what the things are that the soldiers carry on the news, and very very upset when he made a gun out of some duplo and made "pksh pksh" noises. I assume he picked it up at playgroup.

It's quite hypocritical though, as I played with toys which involved guns (action force, playmobil etc) and swords and axes (lego, Britannia knight figures and so on) from a very young age, and I haven't, so far as I recall, gone on a rampage.

If I did I'd still score more than 12.

The only reasonable solution is to ban people from all public places.

Or possibly sober up. I forget.