Be Excellent To Each Other

Just watching News 24 (because I can't sleep, dammit) - and there's a move to bring in lessons on "money". What is interest? What is debt? Why should I save?

FFS!

How about giving children a real mathematical education which would enable them to answer those questions and far more besides? I mean ask anyone (adult or child) if they think 5% growth, in anything, is sustainable and they'll probably answer yes. After all 5 is such as small number, it can't possibly matter, can it?

And why are we not teaching now concepts of mathematics like number theory trigonometry, set theory and calculus? Ask most people what the "log" button on a calculator does and they wouldn't be able to tell you - that is if they own a calculator!

This is how the banks have bankrupted the world - the population is mathematically illiterate and don't have the skills to challenge what they're being told; and I don't just mean the poorest in society I mean from the poorest all the way up to the Prime Minister. Things need to change.

I don't know, I think (obviously in addition to a decent education in maths) teaching the real world application of maths that is relevant to finance is a good idea.

Also, teaching skills of budgeting, and giving kids at a young age a better concept of the value of money is probably a good thing (Although it is probably just another example of the education system picking up the slack on something that parents should be doing a better job of).

Reminds me of this series of Youtubery that Some One posted here once.

Absolutely right - that's the exponential function in action. It describes why Samurai swords achieve over a million layers with as few as twenty folds and why if you put a penny on the first "check" of a chessboard and doubled the value of each previous square on each subsequent square you'd end up with £184467440737095516.15!



Pure Mathematics is often criticised as having no real world application, but in actuality it does. I decry the fact that neither are being taught.



I agree with this, but I think this is more of a social education which would benefit from students understanding of fairly raw mathematical skills other than arithmetic.

Budgeting skills and maths skills aren't the same thing at all. I know fuck all maths (seriously, I got a B at GCSE and still don't know how, because I had literally no idea how to do anything, partly on account of having a series of teachers so awful they managed to turn one of the 2% of the nation's school population to get a gold in the national maths challenge into an adult who can barely do more than multiplication without getting irrationally angry), but my budgeting instinct is pretty well ingrained. I also know probably less than anyone on this board about finance and economics - I still don't know what APR even is. But I avoid debt by never buying anything I can't afford, and never spending money I don't have. If I'm short of money, I'll go without more things until I have more money again.

I do agree that maths education in this country is fucking appalling though, for obvious reasons. The main reason is that anyone who has the qualifications to teach maths can and will get better pay and conditions doing it abroad, or in a university, or simply go into a field that isn't teaching. And I don't blame them either - education is one of my life's leading interests, but I would hack off a thumb to avoid teaching in the UK.

The issue is that the majority of school kids won't have the ability to cope with pure mathematics - teach 'em just the 'academic' side of mathematics, and that will turn them off maths forever. (Same, conversely, with English - it's counterproductive teaching all 14 year olds Shakespeare when so many are barely literate.) I do agree that we need a more mathematically-able population, but blanket teaching every kid the more abstract and challenging part of maths is counter productive.

Teaching children about money is a fucking brilliant idea, and one that's going to be of use to all of them in the outside world.
For example, I'm fine with maths (got an A level and everything) but I didn't have a clue what the mortgage guy was gabbling on about the other day.

I too have an A-Level in maths (Pure Maths at that) but it still took me ages to explain to my (highly bright and educated) wife why overpaying on the mortgage was a damn good idea. Maybe the gooberment is on to something

Sounds like a great idea to me.

You can be a complete maths nerd at degree level and still not understand a word about equities, inflation and taxation and the like, because it's usually couched in archaic terminology and based on a set of received wisdom which is more about guessing and hedging your bets than working out sums.

Really, the two areas don't overlap at all unless you're planning a career in high finance or money markets and possibly not even then.

And once you're a grown up and expected to know this sort of stuff, where can you go for advice? Independent financial advisors which turn out to be not so independent and will charge you and arm and a leg for patronising you?
No. People need a grounding in the basic terminology, need showing how mortgages and interest rates work, and what risk actually means over a longer-term perspective.

Thats not necessarily maths though. For example, the guy on MSE who thought that having taken a 25 year mortgage out, he was going to lose his house as he couldn't pay it off, cash, at the end of the two year fixed period.

The problem is that with the National Curriculum and the like, it doesn't take the theory to application in other areas - if you start to focus maths lessons around money, then within five years it will effectively be a money class only, and whilst they will know that having 100% more money than £1 means they now have £2, they won't be able to apply the concept to apples.

While I agree that financial terminology can be a mine field, I'd argue that without having the matematical wherewithal to actually work something out how could you tell whether or not you're being bamboozled?

In all fairness, I don't think too highly of the average IQ of the average MSE forum poster, so it's par for the course.

I think it's a good idea, and could be a good way to sneak in some 'real maths' too.

Although, isn't this the sort of thing they should be teaching in PSE*/'general studies', instead of constantly getting reformed gang members or people from alcoholics anonymous to come in and tell us about all the awesome things they used to do when utterly shitfaced.

*When I was at school, it was called Personal and Social Education, or something trendy sounding. Don't think we ever did much other than upset guest speakers by ignoring or asking them rude questions, mind.

We did it, but only in the 6th form, and only as a 1-term rotation of general studies.

Me neither, and my reaction to him got me (temporarily) banned. I only ever go on there to look for any news on A&L mortgage rate. It is quite indicative of the general numeracy levels of the populous though.

We did PSE in years 10 and 11, if I recall correctly. It taught us useful things like: .

One lesson was entirely about how to write cheques. Not only are cheques very rarely written by young people these days, but it's patently obvious how to write them by, you know, looking at the cheque as you do so.

jesus, that's just like the LPC.

What's a cheque?

It's what merkins call a bill.

People under the age of 25 should be banned from banks. They just clutter up the place, make the queues longer and don't have any money to begin with.

People go to banks? Like, in person?

"Thank fuck for those envelope machine thingies" is all I can say. Having to queue every time I wanted to deposit a cheque was tedious at best.

What's a cheque?

A British check.

"Cheque Please!"

Cheque, mate.

Ch-ch-ch-ch-cheque it out!

Cheque yourself before you riddidy reque yourself.

*shows self out*

Sure, but that's simple arithmetic which anyone can do, at least with the aid of a calculator. But you still have to know what APR means and how the interest on an un-repayed loan keeps adding on top, and that kind of thing.

Dirty.

Our Natwest has taken the envelopes away and now expects you to queue at a machine and feed the cheques in. The machine usually spits out the cheque as it did today.

I have complained. I want the bloody envelopes back or they can GTFF.

Anyone who runs a business needs to.

Geometric progressions to the rescue.


Amusingly that is a mistake and I'm pretty sure interest rate is an arithmetic series. OR MAYBE IT ISN'T?!

Shit, I think I need this course.

HSBC in Canary Wharf has a Coinstar machine type thing, that pays change straight into your bank account, without any form of charges.

Why I have never seen one of these machines anywhere else in the world (other than the Coinstar machines, nyatch), is beyond me. If they work, this is a brilliant idea.

The very one you're speaking of works absolutely fine. It's brilliant.

Also, the cheque paying in machines are fantastic - because what you get back is a printout of your cheques, proving you paid them in, rather than just a little receipt that could equally be for a small amount of poo in a paper envelope.

I actually considered opening an account with them, just to stop Coinstar taking 7% of the £120 of change that I had in my desk until I took it home last week.

The same £120 that gave me an added impetus to stop smoking again, as all of that change arose in the past 6 months, either at Pret a manger, or the fag shop next door to it. Nicorette patches and Sandwiches from home for dinner this week!

Aaaargh, some of you have A-level Maths, or did it at university. I feel very depressed that I didn't get a GCSE in maths, and it's seemingly too late to rectify that.

It's never too late.

I think you can even do it it via open learning type courses.

Nobody likes a quitter.

Well, maybe, but I won't be able to cover the expense realistically unless it's free. But then I don't think I'd get it free, as I have already too high a level of qualifications. If anyone knows otherwise, and the correct name of this 'open learning' provider, just let me know...

http://www.emagister.co.uk/gcse_maths_f ... 278110.htm

Malc

Actually, this probably helps much more.

Malc

Well, thanks for the link, but (beyond both our control) there's nothing affordable nearby to me, or accessible by public transport. Thanks though.

I have just (out of boredom) carried out some research, and apparently, at the same institutions but in 2010, I couldn't have taken my old degree course, or my A-level in Biology, without having a proper pass at GCSE Maths. Guess I escaped just in time!

You have a degree? Why give a fuck about maths GCSE then? GCSEs were a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

When I did maths, money was often used in it. Even covered things like VAT, even before I got to comprehensive school level. And compound interest and whatnot.

When I got to doing A-Level maths everything went wrong for me. I couldn't even do long division. I'd think I'd got it and understood it but after doing all the working out the answer was wrong. I never figured out why that was. Same happened with mechanics and SUVAT. Every question wrong, even though I thought I'd got it. I was really quite upset as I thought I was good at maths. I got thrown off the course because of my failure.

But er.. that's not what this is about is it?

Also everyone should watch this bit of awesome:

Thought it might improve some of my careers chances and stuff. Perfectly naively. Surprising how certain 'lower' qualifications like GCSEs can still be required even from graduates.

Sadly true. When I was flip flopping around trying to find something to "do" and "be" when I left Uni, I toyed with thinking of teaching. They wanted GCSE English and Maths to start training.

Still. Qualifications, eh? I can't remember a fucking thing that I learned doing anything.

Instead of GCSE maths, have you considered an OU foundation course? You'd probably find it more interesting and better for your job prospects.