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 Post subject: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 15:52 
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As I posted in a bits and bobs a few weeks ago:

Quote:
Would anyone care to guess what (if any) sentence two men would get in the queen's court for pulling down a man's house (with his teenaged daughter and young son still inside) in 1847?

It may be a few weeks before I find out, as we appear to have the entire case on record, I know almost nothing about the case, and I can only really look into it in my spare time at work. Fabulous prizes to be won*!

*fabulous prizes are not to be won.



There have been exciting new developments (now that I've actually had time (read: shredded the paperwork I couldn't be bothered with) to investigate)!

The claims in brief are these:

"The plaintiff [name] is a poor man gaining his livelihood by the sweat of his brow".

The defendant are a carpenter, and a farmer and overseer of the poor allegedly acting as the carpenter's servant (not in the butler sense, obv).

The plaintiff claims that the defendants trespassed on his property, damaged and destroyed his house, and destroyed various household goods to the value of £20 (approx. £1,150 today, which would probably be at least six or seven months' wages for the plaintiff, if not more). He adds that they have deprived him of the use, occupation and enjoyment of said home, and is taking action against them for £500 (approx. £29,000 now, which would have paid a skilled craftsman for a decade, or bought a 90-strong herd of cows).

The defendants reject all three charges almost entirely, claiming each time that the house belonged to them, and as such they had every right to do what they liked with it. They do concede that they damaged some of the plaintiff's items. However, they claim said items were there unlawfully, and that they removed them to a reasonable distance as was their right, and caused no unnecessary damage or destruction.

The plaintiff rejects these claims, and both parties turn themselves to the judgement of the court.

Who is telling the truth, viewers? What else will we discover about these men? What will the outcome be?

Answers on the back of a ten pound note to the usual address, please. I will add more information as it comes, and as I feel it pertinent/entertaining. Place your initial bets!

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:01 
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Dunno. Tell us?


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:04 
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kalmar wrote:
Dunno. Tell us?


I don't know yet. That's the point. This is supposed to be fun :(

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:05 
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tl;dr

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:06 
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baron of techno

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Meh, I dunno. No guilt is found, both parties owe the court a lot of money, everyone goes away unhappy.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:07 
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myp wrote:
tl;dr


MAN BREAK POOR MAN HOUSE. POOR MAN BOO HOO. WHAT NOW.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:08 
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sinister agent wrote:
myp wrote:
tl;dr


MAN BREAK POOR MAN HOUSE. POOR MAN BOO HOO. WHAT NOW.

:DD :DD :DD

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:10 
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What was the name of the plaintiff?

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:12 
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MaliA wrote:
What was the name of the plaintiff?


Nice try, law talkin' guy. :p

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 16:43 
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sinister agent wrote:
Place your initial bets!


ASBOs all round.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 17:09 
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the rich person got away with it.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 17:37 
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They were both sentenced to "Be takeneth from this place of law, and to be forcedeth to don tabards of the highest visibility, and top thenceforth be taken to a place rich in crude writings upon the walls and embuttments, and the they shalt sullenly and ineffectively whitewash those writings, and picketh up that which others have cast aside for 2 score and ten hours, and their debt unto society shall be considered paid, and they shall haveth their liberty restored."


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 17:39 
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:DD


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 17:40 
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Someone came along with some pliers and a blowtorch and got medieval on they ass?

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 18:16 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Someone came along with some pliers and a blowtorch and got medieval on they ass?

I don't think they had blow torches in medieval times, JC.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 18:17 
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Bobbyaro wrote:
JohnCoffey wrote:
Someone came along with some pliers and a blowtorch and got medieval on they ass?

I don't think they had blow torches in medieval times, JC.


Oh yeah. Fuck. :D

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 19:47 
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ADDITIONAL:

A few days prior to the destruction of the house, the plaintiff served the defendants with notices not to enter or cause to be entered said premises for any reason, or they would be considered trespassers and pursued as such in law. A copy of the notice was provided, as well as a witness who confirmed that he served both men. The court accepted the evidence and testimony, and noted that the defendants were made aware that the plaintiff would consider their entry trespassing.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 19:49 
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sinister agent wrote:
What will the outcome be?

Death by hanging until very very dead?

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 23:01 
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I reakon they were put in the stocks and pelted with rotten fruits and vegetables.

Or possibly even a stoning or something.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 23:59 
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DEVELOPMENT:

The defendants produced a conveyance with the mark of the original owner of the building (plaintiff's father), allegedly proving that he signed possession over to one of them a month before his death, which itself was about a fortnight before the demolition.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:01 
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Excuse any thickness here.. I'm just trying to sum this up.

Basically there's a poor dood living in a house. A carpenter.

Then you have this bunch of people who claimed that the house was theirs.

The bunch of people basically knocked the house down and the other dude said they were trespassing etc.

Then the bunch of people proved that the house they knocked down belonged to them?

So basically the poor dood is a bit Donald Ducked really it would seem.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:18 
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The carpenter was one of the people who knocked the house down. The man living there doesn't have a specific occupation. Probably went down as 'labourer'.

The document they came up with had the original owner's mark. A cross. It's more paperwork than the plaintiff had (aside from the notice not to trespass), but it's still just a deed with a cross on it.

I know most of the case now, including the verdict. Nobody's right so far. I thought our legal types would enjoy this one. Hmph.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:22 
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Ah OK thanks man.

What I seem to be missing here is what this dude was doing living in the house. Was he paying rent? was there an agreement?

There's no info on that, just about this dude getting his(?) house smashed down and suing the people that smashed it (The apparent owners) for damages.

I think that's what's confusing, I mean if they did own it what the feck was this dude doing there?

:S

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:23 
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Cut the house in two, each party gets half.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:24 
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The carpenter was Jesus Christ. The house was his father's, God, so it was a church. The mark was a cross, instead of a fish. Tut.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:24 
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The dead man was put in a cave with a big egg for a door, he later rose from the dead & freaked out a hooker?

Their sentence was "Jesus Christ man, did you see that?"



EDIT: Fucking hell Dimmers, that was a spooky bit of mind pissage just then.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:30 
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JohnCoffey wrote:
Ah OK thanks man.

What I seem to be missing here is what this dude was doing living in the house. Was he paying rent? was there an agreement?

There's no info on that, just about this dude getting his(?) house smashed down and suing the people that smashed it (The apparent owners) for damages.


The house previously belonged to the occupant's father. The occupant claims that his father left the house to him, his eldest son, on his death, many months before. He has many witnesses saying that it was generally understood in town that this was the case, but no papers aside from a copy of a notice to the two men to not trespass (which was unquestionably served a few days before they did so).

The other two men claim that a month before the father died, he left them the house. Two weeks after the man's death, they trashed the place. They have one document which they claim gave them every right.

Quote:
I think that's what's confusing, I mean if they did own it what the feck was this dude doing there?


What indeed. But he claims they never owned it, so doesn't need to answer that question. This is what the jury had to face. Law can be great, huh?

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:35 
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Ahhhh. A lovely smearing of clarifying butter. Thanks ! makes a lot more sense now.

Well it seems (to me) that the house did indeed belong to the person living in it. However, his dad could have sold it to the other people considering that his son is skint I assume the father was too.

However, the papers could well be faked.

Looking forward to the outcome now. You have definitely aroused my interest :)

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:51 
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His dad (I'll start calling him the Elder if it helps) was indeed a poor man - for the last 'several years' of his life, he was unable to work due to age, and dependent on the parish for support (poor law, essentially - one of the men who wrecked the place was an overseer of the poor for that parish).

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 17:57 
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Ah I see. Well it's definitely interesting. TBH I'm more interested in the story now than the result :D

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 18:45 
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I'm guessing here, transportation to the colonies then.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 17:12 
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Lumme, the article goes to press tomorrow. I don't know where this week and weekend went.

Right, further news:

The defendants produced a couple of witnesses, including a solicitor who was present at the signing of the deed, and the wife of a man who had rented the lean-to for some time before the original owner died. These people backed the defendants (although interestingly, the tenant himself didn't - a note from the court in a margin mentioned that they had a hell of a time serving him, and it was almost certain that, as he worked for one of the defendants, they were hassling him in an attempt to keep him from testifying).

However! The plaintiff, in closing his case, played an ace. The old man's daughter and carer for his last few weeks suddenly agreed to testify, and said that the two men, with a couple of accomplices, had come to the house several times and tried to pressure her and the old man into signing the house over. On one of these occasions, she alleged, the defendant "said he would take my father's living from him. He said he would take it away."

They finally got him to sign by “[the defendant]’s taking the old man’s hand out of the bed, putting the pen into it and guiding his hand to make a mark on the deed, which was previously produced, and when that was done [the defendant] observed that it was capital.” Furthermore, “The old man was at that time a complete child and not capable of understanding any thing.”

She alleged further that the other defendant gave her a sovereign in exchange for her silence. The defence, oddly, only unearthed more incriminating quotes in cross-examination, and didn't attempt to lean on or discredit her.

What, then, came of all this? Was the plaintiff full of lies and slander? Were the defendants revolting scoundrels abusing their power? Did the court actually give a toss either way?

DUN DUN DUN.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 17:16 
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TELL ME NOW!

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 17:29 
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EVERYONE MUST GUESS

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 17:31 
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My guess: The defendant was in charge of provisions of the poor for that parish, so was probably mates with the judge, who instructed the jury to find the defendants not guilty.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 17:45 
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Now that's more like it! A plausible, reasoned guess.

I'll probably reveal all tomorrow, as that's when Johnny Public finds out anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 23:58 
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WHAT NOW.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:09 
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I need to know!

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:28 
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I reckon guilty, because, simply, he wasn't rich.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:55 
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Because I am lazy, I will simply paste what I did last week. I should arguably wait another day, but meh. Here is the full (more or less) story:

Quote:
As the season of goodwill and bad jumpers approaches, our archive has revealed a timely reminder of the importance of a sense of perspective.

On the morning of December 6th 1845, an Ettington carpenter, William Gale, paid a fateful visit to a cottage he had recently acquired in Loxley, along with an associate, Thomas Jordon, a local farmer. Aiming to knock down the cottage, the two men quickly took a pick axe to its chimney, bringing it down onto the lean-to built on the side of the cottage as an extension.

Two men demolishing their cottage most likely made for a fairly unremarkable sight, at least until the young lady inside the lean-to they were destroying cried out for their attention. Even more shockingly, the response of these men was far from concerned – Jordon demanded that the frightened lady, one Rachael Bolter, leave immediately, and empty the house in the process. She refused, whereupon the two men forcibly entered and carried away everything they could find, piling it up in the street. A whole stock of crockery, kettles and utensils were broken or damaged, along with the family’s beds, furniture, food, and even their clothes. They then resumed their destruction of the building, ignoring both Ms. Bolter and the “little lad” who had just run outside.

In Ms. Bolter’s own words: “Jordon said I should soon be glad to run. I saw the building shake over my head and I went out or I should have been killed.”

Jordon and Gale were quite succesful in destroying the cottage that day, as well as the lean-to, and even had plans to build a new one in its place. But their plans didn’t quite come to fruition when it became clear that the original building and land were never theirs to begin with.

Jordon and Gale claimed that the original owner, Richard Bolter the elder, signed the property over to their possession about a month before he died aged 90 – a mere fortnight before their antics. Bolter was a labourer who had owned the building for 50 years, but found himself unable to work and so dependent on the Parish for support. Jordon’s place as Overseer of the Poor of Loxley connected him to the man’s case.

However, Rachael’s father Richard the younger, rejected this, claiming that Richard the Elder left the property to him. With no papers to prove it, Richard the younger had little hope of proving his case. Nonetheless, in 1847 he took Gale and Jordon to the Queen’s Court for the charges of trespassing, and destruction of his house and goods, for the astonishing sum of £500 – likely enough to pay his wages for a decade.

Bolter presented witness after witness who confirmed the general understanding in the village that the property would pass to him as heir, but Gale and Jordon quickly presented a conveyance with Bolter the elder’s mark, granting a massive advantage. It took the reluctant testimony of his daughter and one-time carer, Sarah Hortin, to turn the case.

According to Mrs. Hortin, the mark was not binding, and was made by “Jordon’s taking the old man’s hand out of the bed, putting the pen into it and guiding his hand to make a mark on the deed, which was previously produced, and when that was done Jordon observed that it was capital.” Furthermore, “The old man was at that time a complete child and not capable of understanding any thing”. Mr. Gale was not blameless either – it was he who gave Sarah Hortin a sovereign in exchange for her silence.

Hortin’s account apparently convinced the jury, who found in favour of Bolter – Gale and Jordon knowingly trespassed on and damaged his property, and were ordered to pay damages of £40, and costs of £40. A comfortable sum, but hardly a fair exchange for the loss of a family home.

So if the shopping, the planning, and the endless wailing of Slade ever start to feel like too much to handle, try to pause and tell yourself “at least nobody’s trying to drop a chimney on my head”


There will be no prizes.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:05 
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So POOR MAN WOO HOO.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:23 
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Apart from losing his dad, his house and everything in it in December, and not getting anything for it for nearly two years. And not getting enough to rebuild, either.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:27 
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sinister agent wrote:
Apart from losing his dad, his house and everything in it in December, and not getting anything for it for nearly two years. And not getting enough to rebuild, either.


Well, yes. Bit of a shit outcome, really, from his perspective and the perspective of a really interesting story.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:39 
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Malhumbug Front wrote:
sinister agent wrote:
Apart from losing his dad, his house and everything in it in December, and not getting anything for it for nearly two years. And not getting enough to rebuild, either.


Well, yes. Bit of a shit outcome, really, from his perspective and the perspective of a really interesting story.


Well, to be fair, he was poor. Probably a foreign, too. The filth.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:48 
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What's she going to look like with a chimney on her?

Anyway, good outcome that the bad guys didn't get away with it, at least. I wasn't holding out much hope of the victim getting a fair deal but it could've been worse.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:50 
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kalmar wrote:
What's she going to look like with a chimney on her?


A better line would have been

"What do you call a woman with a chimney on her head?"

"Ruth."

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:56 
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Unpossible!

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sinister agent wrote:
kalmar wrote:
What's she going to look like with a chimney on her?


A better line would have been

"What do you call a woman with a chimney on her head?"

"Ruth."

Ah, yet another joke ruined by writing it down.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:59 
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sinister agent wrote:
kalmar wrote:
What's she going to look like with a chimney on her?
A better line would have been

"What do you call a woman with a chimney on her head?"

"Ruth."
That wouldn't fit in the song* though.
*I assumed Kalmar was on about "Feel It" by The Tamperer & Maya :S

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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 13:00 
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baron of techno

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Obviously!


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 Post subject: Re: It's time for a game of "What's my sentence"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 13:04 
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kalmar wrote:
Obviously!
Woo! Through my quick googling to find out what the song was actually called I've inadvertently discovered what the fuck she was banging on about :DD

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