Be Excellent To Each Other

Hey all. I know a lot of you probably are not interested in this but aside from the cat thing there are a lot of points to be made.

As you all know I have a passion for bengal cats and I have two. Yet, it would seem there is an ongoing dispute as to whether these cats should be allowed.

Here is an article raising the argument I feel -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/petsh ... -home.html

The lady in the photograph is Nicola Yates, the breeder I always go to for cats for myself and others.

Now. In the article it says that these cats (Savannahs) can be dangerous and so shouldn't be allowed. My points on this matter are as follows.

* Dogs are equally as dangerous. I'm sure someone like Cavey would agree that if one of his dogs was to lose it's proverbial rag we would be in trouble.

* Dogs have been bred and interbred for not only our enjoyment but for specific tasks. IE - going down holes killing rabbits and rats (Jack Russell & Yorkies) Police work (Alsations) rounding up sheep, helping the blind etc, etc.

* Yes a Savannah could potentially be dangerous, but then any animal with a set of teeth and a 'tude could be potentially dangerous.

* It should, as with dogs in the USA, fall back on the owner should any thing bad happen.

* How many stories have you heard about a cat biting a child's face?

Cavey. I just wanted to point out that this is not a dog bashing thread mate. I am just using points that are there to be made but IMO the incident always leads you back to the owner and what kind of person they are.

If any one needs any more information on the Savannah then please ask.

Your thoughts ladies and gents?

I think Nicola made a great point with -



And this -



Was said by Peter Neville. Now surely that could be applied to any animal?

I don't know if this is how the law goes, but I definately think that anything an animal does, it's owner should be legally responsible for.

A dog attacks someone, causing GBH, the owner is guilty of GBH (or equivalent).

A cat shits in my garden, the owner is legally responsible for it.

A dog makes lots of noise late at night, the owner is legally responsible for it.

And so on.

Are these them 'Atomic Kittens' I've heard so much about? What grow into 'Nuclear Pussy'?

Well, given my dog phobia, and my allergy to cats...

I think everyone should stick to rabbits and guinea pigs. Or cats that don't make me sneeze and unable to breathe well without medication.

That's what they do in some states in the USA. And rightly so too.

Sadly this is not currently the law. But if I throw my neighbour's cats shit into their own garden, I'm breaking the law, even when my lawn has been ruined. Go figure.

I'd not allow these cats, being as the owners will invoke the 'dogs are dangerous too' then not put their cat on a lead, like a dog would be.

How about the threat to wildlife in the area? Dogs are fairly benign in a country garden compared to a larger cat I'd wager.

Well it's totally not advisable to let them out any way Gov due to a few things. Highest on that list is theft/blackmail. It's been reported a few times in the papers that people have kidnapped these cats and then demanded ransom. Sounds ridiculous I know..

Again I would put that responsibility on owners. I have two bengal girls and neither leave the house. They will once I get their enclosure built onto the back of the house (conservatory style made from aviary panels and perspex roof) but until then I have two litter trays and spend an hour every morning cleaning changing and hoovering.

Cats are predators. I would never let mine out due to the impact it has on bird populations. I got a letter from the RSPCA saying just that recently, basically saying not to let cats roam the streets (because you wouldn't let a dog or other pet) because of the damage it is doing to wildlife.

I mean honestly, who would pay upward of £1000 and let the cat out? lazy people? irresponsible people? then again we come back to the owner. Personally I feel that any pet cat should not be allowed out. People have the audacity to complain when their cats drink anti freeze but it's their fault really. You tend to find that people that get cats and let them out are generally 'can't be assed with the responsibility of owning an animal' people.

Hmm - I'd say a dog would be just as likely to want to chase down and kill any garden wildlife, but the cat would probably be more capable.

Still, given the cost and comparative lack of resistance to illness of the wild cross cats, a far higher propertion of them are house cats compared to your average moggie.

Can we not call them "supercats" please?

Well if caging or keeping indoors are the only options, I'd say they're worse.

i think it is cruel to keep a cat indoors all the time.

I say allow them.

I have been missing oversized felines since the demise of 'Thundercats'.

Well yes, it's a stupid label tbh. I was only going by that news article.

But it's OK to do it with a dog, rat, mouse, hampster, guinea pig etc?

I don't understand why people think it is so bad to keep a cat indoors. Dogs live good lives indoors providing you walk them and give them regular excercise. So why should a cat be any different?

Personally I have chosen the enclosure route as walking a small bengal cat on a lead would make you look like a pilchard.

Yes. I think 'Ubercats' or 'Gigacats' from now on.

yes but i take my dogs out for long walks and runs in the fields. They are not stuck in the house all day. A cat is an outdoor animal so should be allowe out. That is just my opinion, when we had cats they were out all the time.

Teracats? (bigger and badder than gigacats, and there's a pun about their fearsomeness in there if you look closely and squint a bit)

I see what you're saying, but the idea that cats are outside animals and should be allowed to roam is pretty old fashioned now. When I grew up there were a few dogs people couldn't be bothered with roaming around. Dustbins would be knocked over, shit strewn the local parks and I even saw one of them eating another one's poo

That was then, when it was acceptable for dogs to shit on the grass and people just walk away. But, things have changed since then. When my uncle walks his lab he has a couple of plastic baggies in his coat pocket. Dog shits he picks it up and takes it home and puts it in the bin. I haven't stepped in dogshit for years, but I remember how fucking angry it used to make me. Especially when you don't notice it and the contents of someone elses dog's arsehole ended up all over the hallway carpets.

And the same goes for cats. It seems people don't like it when they shit in their garden. I wouldn't like it either, because it shouldn't be happening.

The entire consensus on owning a cat used to be because they were low maintainance animals you could feed and if you weren't in the mood, kick outside. And that's pretty old fashioned now IMO. If you agree to own a cat then just like any other animal you should agree to looking after them properly and being responsible for that animal.

Cats are smaller than dogs so they can get plenty of excercise in and around the house if you set your house up properly. Mine have a large scratching post with a roost on the top that they jump all over. They also chase eachother around the house for most of the day before plopping in their beds exhausted.

Any way, sorry to drag on, but my point is this Kovacs. You usually find that people who buy pure bred cats (or supercats if it arouses you ) take greater care of them than your general moggy owner. I have had four bengals now and all of them have been well looked after and kept in check so that they don't piss anyone off.

For example my breeder has a strict list of T&C on her site about how these cats are not outside cats and under no conditions should be allowed to roam the streets. I have seen people approach her on the forum and say that they want a Savannah/Bengal/Russian blue/Abysinian (sic) but do not have the time to keep an eye on them and thus want to let them outside. She has point blank refused to sell them a cat, even though that could be considered not her problem.

I mean heck, who has seen white dog poo recently? Not seen that shit (pardon the pun) since I was a kid.

that is because we tidy up after our dogs

Indeed. oops wrong button.. Because you are responsible for your animal and that is the given thing to do.

Also I should point out.

Feral cats are outside cats. They are usually born there and usually stay there. Pet cats these days should be kept in the house. That's my opinion of course but it's also the opinion of the RSPCA.

we were responsible for our cats, but still let them out. Cat flap etc

Without sounding patronising what do you think that achieves? other than giving them somewhere to shit that you don't have to clean up and destroying wildlife.

Do you feed them? if so why? they're going out and killing prey that they won't eat because you already fed them. Do you see what I'm saying here dude?

If you feed your cat a proper balanced diet then weight won't be a problem. So the only two things to gain by letting them out is not having to deal with their shit (which means someone else does) and making sure that any prey they kill is wasted..

My next point is not aimed at you, I just don't want to have to make another post to say it.

Any one ever been in the situation where someone tells them that their cat brought them a 'present'? IE - dead mouse, bird, rabbit etc? That one has always made me laugh. It's not a present, it's prey that they weren't hungry enough to eat because you stuffed them full of food and after about 5 minutes of death the cat won't eat it.

I had a barn cat once specifically to kill all the mice in the barn. Basically mouse pee and shit will kill a horse if it gets ingested in the hay. That fucker wouldn't leave us anything. Well, apart from bird heads that it didn't eat (because shitting them out is bloody painful).

the point was not to catch wild life, but to run and climb. Generally get more exercise than in a 6foot by 6foot room.

I've already related the tales of our local mental feral cat, so I won't repeat them full length.

Suffice it to say, it takes big steaming dumps in the garden. It left us a dead rat by the kitchen door (where there's a catflap fitted by the previous owners). And it REALLY wants in the house, including trying to shove the dryer hose out of the catflap so it could get in.

I do wish it'd fuck right off.

Not enough, frankly. So many kids (and far too many adults, but that's another story) don't have a clue how to handle animals (I was one of them when I was pretty young. No wonder our cat turned out to be a bit of a psychopath). The last one I heard was a great story. Some wee kid was harassing the semi-feral cat that hangs around work, repeatedly, and utterly ignoring its obvious attempts to get away (including lurking under a hedge), then warnings. His parents were watching the whole time, and egging him on because they wanted a photo of him stroking the cat. Eventually the cat had enough, and latched one paw onto his leg and used the other to reach up and twat him one on the chin. The mother complained to one of the guides, who asked some other witnesses what had happened, and told the mother to get bent. Lesson hopefully learned.

Dogs might attack a larger animal, but even a mental half wild cat will not deliberately attack an animal ten times their size unless cornered, chased or harassed. Dogs are prepared to attack larger animals instinctively, because they're pack hunters and work by overpowering prey. Cats are solitary hunters who work by ambush and stealth, not strength.

Sure, having a small child around one might be a bad idea. So, if you have a small child, don't get one.

It's much more likely to be the cat confusedly trying to teach you to hunt by bringing back a wounded animal for you to finish off. That's why they're often alive when they bring them back, and why the cat won't just bugger off afterwards, but will hang around howling in a faintly creepy manner.

The first thing that goes through their heads when you let them out is kill, kill kill.

The 'domestic' cat has the highest success rate of kills in the entire feline kingdom. IIRC it was approaching 90%. As an example of how a wild 'big cat' does? The cheetah enjoys less than a 50% kill rate and a massive chance of not even getting any of it before the lions turn up to ruin it's day. And you can add hyenas to that aswell.

Domestic cats like any other cat will expend as little energy as possible. So for example when I grew up and we had an outside cat we would let it out and it would fuck off to the closest shed that we left open or nearest place in the sun and lay around all day. That's just the way they were designed and is a part of their nature.

As I said in a previous post, if you researched nutritional diets then the cat would need hardly any excercise. I mean do you even see lions running around playing? they're either hunting or sitting on their asses in a circle

Rubbish. It's "find a garage and sleep, sleep, sleep". Or just "mooch around not doing much".

http://www.mr-lee-catcam.de/pe_catcam1.htm

i disagree. Cats are out side animals. But we are aloud to disagree. What is wrong with cats hunting anyway? It is what they do.

Oh god

Excellent post.

My cat hates kids. I've not had any around Dolly yet but you see the look of fear in Punzel's eyes before you see her arse racing up the stairs to hide under a bed.

My cousin's daughter came over once and I specifically asked her not to follow the cat. If the cat wanted to see her it would come to her. I turned my back and before I knew it she was hands and knees on my bedroom floor with her face close to the edge of the bed. Before I could say "Abbie GET UP" out came a paw.

It didn't catch her thankfully, but it scared her half to death. Poor fucking cat was traumatised.

So then a couple of weeks later when a friend I haven't seen since I parted for the USA ten years ago phoned and said he wanted to come over with his two kids I had to tell him (without sounding a cunt) that the kids were not welcome because I have cats to take care of. He was actually really cool about it and made arrangements for a babysitter before he came.

I give everyone who enters my house plenty of warning. DO NOT follow the cat. She's not very big but she's incredibly well equipped being a bengal. Long razor like claws and incredibly fast. If you back her into a corner? watch out.

Even when my uncle was gleefully waving her mouse around under her nose he did not heed the warning. Mind you, he didn't complain when she ripped his hand open either.

Depends if it is hungry I suppose. Edit great link. Very interesting

we provided food so the cat only went out when it wanted too. It had the choice.

Aye, I love that site. I keep meaning to find out more, as he's sold a fair few of the cameras now.

I don't disagree with much of what you say, mind. Cats obviously do kill more than they need to, but I'm not convinced that their diet makes a great deal of difference - if anything, they'd kill more if you fed them less (or just go and eat at a neighbour's, if not five if you live in a built up area), and sure, the kills wouldn't be as wasted, but I'd rather two mice died than five. The maggots will have the rest either way. I'm also not bothered by their success rate compared to big cats - it's a bit apples and oranges really, given that lions attack wildebeest, and cats attack sparrows.

If I got a cat, I'd let it out a lot. Housecats annoy the piss out of me - my sister's acts like a puppy. It's embarassing (although it is still a psycho killer occasionally). But moreover, many cats need to roam and patrol and explore. It's what they do. Dogs are just as happy chilling with the family and occasionally rolling around in their own faeces.

In principal of course, there's nothing wrong with not letting a cat out. It makes me cringe, but that's not enough.

Although I will say that anyone who puts a cat on a lead should be dunked in porridge. My sister put a lead on her cat once, and oh god, it made me feel sick. Even though it was ridiculously domesticated, it howled and wailed and cried and tried to climb the curtains. Awful, awful thing to do.

Well no, we are sort of agreeing, at least in part. Cats are outside animals. That's where we found them. It was us who chose to give them a 50/50 life. I sort of don't agree to that because of the impact it has on wildlife. If they are fully outside cats then hey, they become a part of the food chain I guess.

However.. Another angle to this then would be 'custom' cats. If a cat is purposely bred for indoor life is that wrong?

Just like we bred certain dogs/horses/cows for a purpose. One argument could be that hey, breeding pet indoor cats is for our amusement and working animals are just that. But then when they are properly looked after and cared for is that wrong?

My underlying opinion is that a pet is different to a wild animal.

You raise some good questions I haven't really thought enough about. I'm going to cop out for now and say that as an initial guiding principle, I have no problem with what people do with pets as long as they look after them well, and that means being responsible for them - even if all this means in terms of wider impact on others is taking it on the chin if your cat kills someone's pet rabbit.

how can a cat be bread to be a house cat. It is not a toy! Also wild life can escape a cat. Cats can't fly or burrow.

Please go and tell my missus' parents' neighbour he's being cruel keeping one of those Spanish house cats. I'd love to come and watch.

That's what they want you to think...

In the same way we bred the sausage dog (forget it's real breed name now) to be able to get under things to rip rabbit's throats out. Or, how we bred the Bulldogs for arena combat. Or how we bred huge horses to pull carts. Or how we bred retrievers to save our legs. ETC, ETC.

For nine generations my cat Punzel's family were not bred to be outside cats. For example, if I open the backdoor she takes off running. Away from the door.

Right since the dawn of time we have inbred and 'customised' animals to serve a purpose. So what is any different about taking a serval and breeding it with a moggy to make cats to be kept as pets?

You have just listed dogs bred to work, my dog has been bred to pull sleds. Cats are cats, they are only indoor because they are not let out. Most cats are scared of the out side first time they see it.

I think that's utter fucking bullshit, certainly it isn't true of anyone I know or have ever known have cats. Personally I feel that if you want a pet to keep permanently locked up in a small cage then it's selfish, like buying a dog that never gets to go out for a walk. Domestic cats are evolved to live side by side with humans, their natural state is to hang around us. Maybe it's just me but my heart sinks a little whenever I see a bird in a cage, a cat stripped of any independence and locked perpetually inside a house I think is every bit as depressing. I don't know whether it's actually cruel but then I'm not an animal psychologist or anything. As for purpose bred indoor animals the only thing these seem to be bred for is their exotic looks gained from being closer to a wild animal, the reason they aren't allowed to roam is that they are large and expensive.

I looked all over the RSPCA site for the bit where they advise that all cats should be kept indoors, couldn't find it.

How does it get the bottle open?

I read it on a PDF regarding cat proof fencing and enclosures. Saying how if you kept your cat inside or, contained in your property it would do far less damage to bird populations. I also got a letter through the door specifically asking residents of my area not to let their cats out due to diminishing numbers of a certain sparrow.

As for anti freeze?

Cat killer poisons cats -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -more.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rries.html



I also read about a cat dying of antifreeze poisoning on another site. Owner immediately accused someone of poisoning her cat but what had really happened was innocent. Basically she found a puddle outside her house with antifreeze in and it turned out her radiator had been leaking.

As for cages? I totally agree. No animal should be kept in a cage. If you don't want your house ruined? don't get a fucking cat. I think declawing is immoral and wrong, too.

A house is nothing but a cage to a dog or a cat, double the size of the animal and you just halve the size of the cage.

So the RSPCA recommendation was a very specific piece of advice concerning a particular local problem.

dude birds fly away! So can escape cats. Nothing wrong with a cat bell.

Seconded. You can just picture a baby sitting there. Glazed eyes, drool cascading out of its mouth, having been sat on the floor by its idiot mother so it can meet the cat. Cat walks past and stops to look at this curious thing. Baby leans shakily forward, seizes the cat's tail and pulls as hard as possible in an attempt to get the entire cat into its mouth, starting with the tail.

Cat, quite naturally, engages its defensive systems. A loud sound not unlike a buzzsaw is heard, followed by a wailing child. Cat contentedly licks its paw and walks away, victorious. Idiot mother hurries over, gathers up the shreds that were her child and chastises you for having 'a bad cat'.

Hmm, daily mail links!

*goes out to shed and tastes some antifreeze*

Bleehhh It's almost as if they started adding bitrex to this stuff years ago.

They're often pretty useless, though. Most cats get through dozens of the things. I remember our first, and most satanic cat went mental for his last few months. He hadn't been hunting for about four years (before which he rarely hunted, but regularly brought home a dying thing on my birthday. It'd make my sister scream and panic, which was just a bonus. He also had no interest in hunting fish, but did enjoy sitting by the neighbour's pond, watching the nearby pit bull strain at its chain and gibber at him while he casually stirred his paw around in the water. Sod glorified teddies - that is how a cat should be ), and was clearly dying, but when my sister put a bell on him for the first time since his youth, he immediately went out and killed two mice.

He also used to unsettle guests by sitting at the end of the garden and staring at them, unblinking, for up to an hour. Just a little dark ball of hate with two glowing green eyes piercing your very soul. Best cat ever.

[/enthusiasm]

Meh. Whatever.

My neighbour in london once slapped the shit out of her dog while taking it for a walk (the first time we'd ever seen her pay any attention to the animal at all - she had a friend with her, who she was clearly trying to impress), yelling at it to "walk nicely".

A thoroughly hateful woman.