Be Excellent To Each Other

Millions of blind people to be killed by hybrid cars.

Of course, trams/trolley buses/milk floats/bicycles aren't a problem.

It's total bollocks. The most noise you get from modern cars is road noise. Unless you've got some kind of V8 beast, there isn't much difference in noise between a petrol car and an electric/hybrid.

I've always wondered if modern electric cars shouldn't make some sort of noise.

Not at inner city speeds.

Stick a playing card in the spokes.

Indeed.

If we're talking external road noise for urban/suburban situations where people are by far the most likely to be run down, i.e. as in this case, then by far the most important noise source is the (internal combustion) engine, moreso in the case of diesels, both through direct noise radiation from the engine block within the unsealed engine bay and the exhaust tailpipe.

The only exception to this is where roads are soaking wet; in this case the resultant 'tyre hiss' tends to become acoustically important also, even at town speeds.

There's a can of worms there - customisable "drive tones". Imagine some bastard driving around with the crazy frog blasting out. Alternatively radios with speakers on the outside of the car, or just turned up to ludicrous volumes (so no change there).

I don't see a problem there really, you just make it so the manufacturers have to fit them and then make it an MOT fail to mess around with them. If someone is that hell bent on having the crazy frog blasting out their car they could already do that now if they really wanted to.

Tram and buses are noise, have you heard a milkfloat and bicycles are slower..... your point being??

I'm sure I read somewhere that there was planned legislation to make electric cars have fake engine noises to avert this situation. Personally I think it's a load of nonsense as cars are quiet nowadays and when you take on board all the other ambient noise in a busy urban environment you'd be talking about making all electric hybrids sound like top fuel dragsters to make them standout.

Apparently Honda are fitting their electric cars to make a 'Star Trek style spaceship woosh sound' (from the paper a few weeks back). Right, so THAT won't confuse the Deafs.

Tram and buses are noise, have you heard a milkfloat and bicycles are slower..... your point being??[/quote]

My point is that practically silent electric vehicles have been on our roads for a century, and yet this is only now a 'problem'.

A tram makes a noise, yes, but not very much of one, just a very gentle metallic whoosh. A trolleybus makes hardly any noise at all.

And as many have said, a modern petrol-engined car is very quiet.

How about a looped recorded announcement from each car: "Attention blind people! Vehicle with registration number XXXXXXX is moving in the vicinity! Please await further instructions from your guide dog!"?

I'm sure I had something humorous to add but by the time I logged in... I forgot it.

You'll just have to imagine it was funny.

Not nearly as quiet as an electric car though, which is the point. I don't think this is just blind people being awkward.

My point is that practically silent electric vehicles have been on our roads for a century, and yet this is only now a 'problem'.

A tram makes a noise, yes, but not very much of one, just a very gentle metallic whoosh. A trolleybus makes hardly any noise at all.

And as many have said, a modern petrol-engined car is very quiet.[/quote]

Granted but said petrol/deisel is noiser than an hybrid/electric

Plus modern electics go faster that the century old ones..

paging Kalmar...

This has rarely stopped me.

Are blind people randomly stepping out into roads now?

As long as they use crossings (AS EVERYONE SHOULD) then they'll be fine.

Shoo-er-lee?

These things rarely are. It's usually the general populace getting offended on behalf of the minorities.

And then there'll be the backlash, where a minority (often consisting of Daily Mail editorial staff) get offended on behalf of the general populace.

Let's assume for the sake of the argument you're clearly trying to start, then, that it's half a century. A 50 year old tram or trolley bus will be going at the same speed through a city as a modern hybrid car.

And while a petrol car is noisier than an electric one, not by much, and certainly not with the noise of a city around you.

Well until they conduct the studies then we won't really know. I haven't heard anything to substantiate the "it's all bollocks" views though. I know for a fact that I can mostly hear the engines of the cars passing by right now, I also know that blind people obviously use sound to help them cross roads safely, so common fucking sense is telling me that there is potentially going to be a problem if lots of cars suddenly become very much quieter, especially when there is a mixture of petrol and electric cars. If for example an electric car were coming along the road followed by a petrol engined one I can well see how it might lead to an accident.

Cities have crossings everywhere, also everyone doesn't live in London.

Isn't a big component of the racket made by cars the tyre noise? Granted, as it increases exponentially with speed (so I have read), it's more of an issue at higher speeds.

Mr Chris in 'not read back through the posts' shocker!

markg: next time you see a Toyota Prius drive past at under 30mph, I guarantee you'll hear it just fine.

I forgot to add my "Posted from my Spackberry Handheld" footer to that post. I only read this page on the walk to the office...

Who's this "myp" person?

If only for the loud smug sound of the driver.

Well, as I have said, the fact that electric cars (or hybrids running on 'electric motor only mode' around town) are vastly quieter than even modern, 'quiet' internal combustion engine powered cars, is absolute - the noise emitted by non-engine sources such as tyre roar and air resistance is negligible at urban/suburban speeds, unless the road is soaking wet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... noise.html

Given that's the case, there is clearly a safety issue here? Whilst there are electric vehicles on our roads at present, these currently represent a tiny minority, as compared to petrol and diesel engined passenger cars and tend to be 'specialised' and often much slower vehicles. The odd milk float creeping around at 15mph at 5am is hardly comparable to the en masse use of electric cars at all hours. Similarly, trams are obviously restricted to fixed, rail routes that are known to visually and hearing impaired people.

We have a friendly neighbourhood forumite who could offer a much more informed opinion on this subject of course.

I doubt very much that it'll confuse the deafs, mate.

Do the rest of us not have ears, then?

Oh I should add Cavey your post wasn't there when I posted since when read in sequence that sounded quite rude!

Electric cars must use much better lubricated bits than milk floats, because every milk float I've ever heard has whined like a cat being stuffed through a wrangle.

I sit less than 20 yards from a 3 lane road for most of the day. With the window open, all I ever hear is road noise, with the very occasional grumble of a bigger engine.

Well, I am an Acoustic Engineer of 25 years standing.

Funnily enough, the sound of the Starship Enterprise is identical to the sound of a hearing aid having a mentals.



Most elegant way of saying "noisy bugger" I've ever heard...

I appear to have become slightly confused

As you were...

Yeah, milk floats are noisy buggers. Newer ones are quieter, but not by much. Plus, of course, you rarely see them nowadays and they don't go that quick anyway.
I don't know about trams, I've not really seen any.

But hybrid cars are really quiet. On a good bit of road at city speeds, they're practically silent - it's eerie.
Modern cars are quieter, yes, but not much quieter than they used to be (they're quieter on the inside, not the outside). And while blind people can't hear any better than normal-sighted people, they are much better at picking out individual sounds, so city environments won't bother them so much.

Essentially, yes, they should use a crossing.

I'm not the only idiot though, Riles is too. So I'm blaming him.

Can you hear bikes going by, then? Until you've sat by a three-lane road that only has electrical cars going past, you can't really judge.

It's the internet, chick. We're all idiots here. Except Mr Chris, Nik and MaliA

If we're talking 70mph motorway speeds Chris, yes, but not at urban/suburban speeds.

I can't envisage too many deaf and/or blind people straying onto a motorway by accident and then being subsequently run down by an unexpected car.

My ear is not trained enough to tell the difference. There's a traffic light controlled crossroad right outside my building though, so the traffic's usually moving pretty slowly.

Wait, I have the solution - the tyres on my Tomcat are properly noisy, so all we have to do is fit electric cars with aggressive off-road tyres

Surely pedestrians should be ensuring they don't go wandering into the road, as a hybrid car will hit you just as well as an ICE car? And if you're blind, aren't you using crossings and extreme care before you enter the road anyway?

No, no, it's EVIL CAR DRIVERS who are the risk once again, not idiots who won't take responsiblity for their own actions.

Well, quite, hence my "granted...."


Ooooooh, there's a tempting Google.


Why's that? I'm fairly sure pedestrians actually have a right to walk on the highway, seeing as this isn't America, and they have right of way when they do so. It's only motorways where there are NO PEDESTRIANS ALLOWED.

Basically.

This isn't a problem. It's a scare-story drummed up by "concern trolls" in the US, paid for by car and oil companies, and now blind support groups are repeating it.
You'll find similarly placed stories about how electric cars are lethal to "first responders" stating that if you are in an accident in one, they won't cut you out.
It's all horseshit.

Drive an EV at parking-lot speeds next to a modern luxury car, a Merc or Lexus. With urban background noise (caused mostly by, well, busses), you won't hear either. In fact, you'll probably hear the EV first, as they tend to have noisy brake vacuum pumps, water circulating pumps and a (to many) quite audible 18kHz motor drive frequency.

I've been driving EVs for 10 years and have never encountered a situation where I've surprised someone by being too quiet. And, y'know, bikes have bells and cars have horns for a reason.

Quite, I agree.
But what if the blind person lives in a village that doesn't have crossings?

Oh no, I certainly didn't think it was rude, my dear; no-one was to know what I happen to do for a living.

(And let's face it, I could hardly blame anyone for automatically assuming that I was talking from a position of complete ignorance, about any given subject anyway, given my past form here! )