DAC's - Explain

NervousPete · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 13:47

Posted this on the What-HiFi forum. It's a magazine the library gets and I read, though I don't understand half the stuff that's in there. Wondering if you lot could also shed some light, 'cos me wants lush-ish sound. Yus.

Ta.

Quote:

Recently I upgraded my computer and monitor to post Charles Babbage engine standards, and am mighty pleased. I'm still playing music through the ancient Logitech speakers though, which seems remarkably stupid considering I'm a music librarian with a rapidly expanding collection of classical, folk, Americana, blues, country and um, well everything, really.

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting a DAC for my Windows 7 PC. Cambridge DacMagic looks intriguing but the fact that it doesn't have a headphone socket is a bit of a jolter. The Beresford TC-7510 one is quite tempting owing to its price and the headphone option. Then there's the Marantz CD5003 which looks good as it seems to be a combined CD/DAC - if I've understood thing's right?

So - questions, as I'm new to all this and alarmingly ignorant:

1: DAC hooks up to PC via USB, bypassing soundcard right? I have a 7.1 HighDefinition Onboard one, so does the fact that it's an intergrated sound card chip thing makes as little difference than a super-soundcard would?

2: Does the DAC need an amp to hook up to, or does it take care of that side? I believe there is one that has a pre-amp built in (I think it's the DacMagic) but I don't know if it's standard. Or can I plug the speakers options below straight into the DAC?

3: What budget (£50 - £150) speakers would you recommend? I'm thinking Tannoy or Q Acoustics, or Wharfdale. There's a chance owing to space limitations that these might be stuck underneath the (stop crying back there!) computer desk, but I reckon I might be able to fit some small stand based ones on either side of the room.

4: Reckon if the DAC needs a pre-amp I'll go for the Cambridge Audio A1, as it seems pretty cheap but rather good.

Probably going to Richer Sounds for this lot, there being a branch in Cardiff, but may shop around. Anyway, thanks for any help coming, sorry if this is all depressingly easy for you to answer, but I become slightly paralysed when reading What-HiFi on my library tea breaks, and haven't been able to find a handy DAC guide in their back issues

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 13:50

I had a DAC when I used a laptop for DJing, and I'm fucked if I could hear the difference when I swapped it for a 'straight out of the laptop' feed. Spend half your budget on a decent amp, and half on decent speakers.

[edit]That should read 'external DAC' - your sound card has one in already.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

What Hi-Fis staff are blithering fuckwits who understand so little about computers they think you need to spend £100 on a USB lead to connect your DAC to your computer (see also: £500 HDMI leads). Their forum dwellers are even worse. So I don't think your thread will end well.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 13:51

Would you really notice any difference between a good internal soundcard and a dedicated USB thing? Provided you used decent cabling in each case of course?

I mean, a DAC is involved either way.

Perhaps I'm missing something. But Pete, beware of the dark side of audiophilia.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 13:52

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

So I don't think your thread will end well.

Oh, post link pls! :ninja:

Dimrill · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 13:54

Do I spy a misused apostrophe in the thread title? FOR SHAME. It's because of threads like this why we have "CD's" and "DVD's" signs in HMV. I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 13:57

And anyway, surely your best bet would be digital optical out - as your soundcard (or external DAC) shares a ground and power rail with the rest of the PC, which is automatically suspect from a noise point of view. Not that I'm suggesting you bother with that either of course (unless you already have the equipment to do it) - any improvement should be tiny compared to spending some time picking decent speakers.

I *think* my iMac has an optical out, or did I just imagine it?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

I have a no-fooling copy of What HiFi where they were extolling the virtues of a £80 USB lead. It sounds much better, apparently, despite the laws of physics. It made me want to break into their offices and ensure that they use equally stupid leads to wire all their office computers to their external hard disks and proofing printers. After all, with an £80 cable, your 0s and 1s from the hard disk won't be randomly flipped, and your printer colours will be more vibrant and it'll use less ink.

kalmar wrote:

I *think* my iMac has an optical out, or did I just imagine it?

Probably. Most recent Macs have a combined optical/3.5mm minijack port.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:05

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

What HiFi where they were extolling the virtues of a £80 USB lead. It sounds much better, apparently, despite the laws of physics.

Works best with Placebo tracks.

Dimrill · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:06

Hmmm. I wish to buy your USB lead. Where can I get it?

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:12

It must be Majic, like his b33rd!

Freeze your cables to improve the sound:
http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/posfdbk.htm

Also, this is one that Jeff Minter found, ages ago. It's *brilliant* - entirely serious and completely bats: http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techni ... iques.html

Nik · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1982

My (horribly expensive) laptop's onboard DAC is rubbish, and makes screechy noises whenever the laptop's plugged into the mains (fine on battery - at least it was until the battery died...). Usually this isn't a problem as I use the optical out to my amp, but when I want to mix the computer audio with an analogue source, I need an analogue out from the laptop.

So, my ingenious solution on such occasions is this: tell Windows to send sound via HDMI and then use the analogue phono audio outs on my tv, thereby turning it into a very expensive and immobile DAC.

NervousPete · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:24

Phew, thanks for all this information. Mainly the information stating, "Are you an idiot or something, or what? Don't do it!" I think I've become contaminated by that glossy What-HiFi magazine. So I can just merrily plug an amp straight into the compy, with no need for DAC meddling? That'll be a relief on my wallet.

Thinking of combining them with Q Acoustics 2010 speakers, as they're cheap and great in a tight space, apparently. As for the amp, maybe the good old budget Cambridge Audio standard. Though there is one DAC that does have an amp built in that doesn't seem much. And do they really run off the PC's power? I imagined they plugged into the mains like everything else.

Apologies for thread apostrophe. Someone punch me in the back of the head. :facepalm:

I shall post the thread link soon as I start getting replies. Will they past the test? "Buy a Cthulu Sound-Hat, the Cthulu Sound Hat's Ambient tentacles detect acute vibrations in the air caused by the screaming of sundered virgins, and you can enjoy the full stereostropic sound of the debauching of Coventry with the sharp, precise details of the throbbing internal membrane. 5/5 What-JesusChristHelpMe-HiFi"

:cthulhu:

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:28

NervousPete wrote:

Though there is one DAC that does have an amp built in that doesn't seem much. And do they really run off the PC's power? I imagined they plugged into the mains like everything else.

Now way can an amplifier of any quality be run from a USB cable.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Right, now for some more helpful stuff.

What What Hi-Fi calls "DACs" aren't really DACs. They are entire sound cards connected to your computer's USB port.

Some (many, even) laptops do have noisy analogue audio outputs. They have poor shielding and electronics that are crammed together. What does it sound like on headphones? Any distortion or crackling or interference?

For most people, the right way to solve this problem isn't to buy an entire new USB soundcard. It's to use your laptop's optical output (as Nik said), which will bypass the digital-to-analogue step inside the laptop, which is likely the only thing wrong with the built-in sound. If you have an amp that can take an optical in, and your laptop has an optical out, this is just a £3 lead.

If your laptop lacks optical out and sounds crap over headphones, well, then and only then should you start looking at "DACs".

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:30

Wait a minute - I said laptop, not NervousPete - I assumed he had a desktop ("upgraded computer and monitor").
In which case, I'd imagine his current (probably on-board) sound card is fine.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:31

NervousPete wrote:

Phew, thanks for all this information. Mainly the information stating, "Are you an idiot or something, or what? Don't do it!" I think I've become contaminated by that glossy What-HiFi magazine. So I can just merrily plug an amp straight into the compy, with no need for DAC meddling? That'll be a relief on my wallet.

That would be my (and I suspect Hive) advice to start with. Investigate something else (perhaps optical) if you find you have noise problems - hissing or humming sounds.

Quote:

Thinking of combining them with Q Acoustics 2010 speakers, as they're cheap and great in a tight space, apparently. As for the amp, maybe the good old budget Cambridge Audio standard.

People claim great things for the T-Amp, which only costs 30 quid or something. Or something with optical input from Richer Sounds - in fact you'd be sensible to go speaker shopping there too, if they still exist.

Quote:

Though there is one DAC that does have an amp built in that doesn't seem much. And do they really run off the PC's power? I imagined they plugged into the mains like everything else.

Well, bear in mind you've only got 2.5W of fairly dirty 5V power from a USB port, so how good for listening is it going to be, exactly? Maybe it means a headphone amp, which would be fair enough. But again - advantage over a PC soundcard? Not a lot, seeing as it basically is one on the end of a bit of wire.

I'm looking forward to what they come up with though, hope it isn't anything sensible

parm · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:32

I had a nice long post all ready to go, but the good Doctor beat me to it. So, what he said.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:33

I think (think) I've got an old Sound Blaster Audigy card at home with optical out. It's yours on Saturday if you want it (and I can find it).

BikNorton · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 10173

My boss and I had to spend 15 minutes shouting down someone on the point of buying a £15 0.7m TOSlink cable from Maplin. Despite protestations he went and got one anyway, but at least settled for the "cheap" £10 one.

Naturally, the Maplin guy tried to extol the virtues of the "better quality" £15 one in-store.

What does he want it for? To connect his Freeview box to his all-in-one 5.1 dvd-amp system.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:33

parm wrote:

I had a nice long post all ready to go, but the good Doctor beat me to it. So, what he said.

Except he's talking about laptops. Which is still valid advice if NP has a laptop.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:35

BikNorton wrote:

Naturally, the Maplin guy tried to extol the virtues of the "better quality" £15 one in-store.

To be fair, the cheapest Maplin offering of anything is likely to spontaneously fall apart before you get it home, so perhaps it wasn't the worst advice ever

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:40

Hey, why the fuck didn't you end your post here with "Great forum, by the way.", Pete? Eh? EH?

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:43

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

It's to use your laptop's optical output (as Nik said)

Nik said laptop to TV via digital. I said optical. Nervous Pete said PC.

:zombie:

NervousPete · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:43

It is a desktop PC with an inbuilt 7.1 onoard hidef thingy with the E5300 chip for the sound.

Grim... wrote:

I think (think) I've got an old Sound Blaster Extigy card at home with optical out. It's yours on Saturday if you want it (and I can find it).

Ooh! Ta! That'd work then, I guess. Straight to amp, yadda yadda.

It's funny, I thought DAC's were required if there were no soundcards because there wasn't a way for an amp to connect straight to a PC, or something. It's all very confusing. I did honestly think they were like a CD player, only being the soundcard outside the PC and yes, running on mains power but with a USB connection.

Nik · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1982

kalmar wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

It's to use your laptop's optical output (as Nik said)

Nik said laptop to TV via digital. I said Optical. Nervous Pete said PC.

:zombie:

I also said optical, unless analogue mixinq was required. :munkeh:

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Andrew Everard, Consulting Editor, What Hi-Fi? Sound and Vision / whathifi.com wrote:

1a. And given that you have a 7.1 card as standard, chances are an offboard stereo DAC will sound much much better.

I propose a forum war. They can have the £500 speaker wire and £5000 hand-wrought kettle leads; we'll pitch up with ALL THE TRAPPINGS OF SCIENCE.

NervousPete · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:44

Grim... wrote:

Hey, why the fuck didn't you end your post here with "Great forum, by the way.", Pete? Eh? EH?

Politeness.

Also, they largely had good spelling and punctuation.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

NervousPete wrote:

It's all very confusing.

It's really not, unless you read What Woolie Thinking magazine too much, then it all looks confusing because your brain has turned mushy.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:45

Your onboard sound card is probably just as good, TBH.
Also, ignore the idiot that just replied to you on the What Hifi Forum.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:46

is there a linky to the forum?

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:47

No, that would be rude, as it wasn't us that posted it.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

I have Saw-style fantasties of locking the editors of all these audiophile magazines into cunning traps that lop pieces off their bodies whenever they fail a double-blind ABX test between a £500 interconnect and a piece of coat hanger.

NervousPete · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:49

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

NervousPete wrote:

It's all very confusing.

It's really not, unless you read What Woolie Thinking magazine too much, then it all looks confusing because your brain has turned mushy.

Flip,

All I want is someone to explain what I need and what plugs into what. WHAT PLUGS INTO WHAT. WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, WHAT-HIFI?! >:(

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:49

NervousPete wrote:

It's funny, I thought DAC's were required if there were no soundcards

If there were no soundcards, you would need a soundcard. The DAC is the bit of the soundcard (one chip) which turns the digital signal into an analogue waveform. As well as that there will be digital stuff to interface to the computer, a small amplifier to buffer the output, analogue filtering of the output, and filtering of the supply voltage.

As Doc said, this is true whether the "soundcard" is inside the PC or a USB dongle.

Quote:

because there wasn't a way for an amp to connect straight to a PC, or something.

Well there is, if you can do the optical cable thing. Then, the DAC part is actually inside the amplifier, which is already dedicated to doing sound stuff, so it is a reasonably good place to put it (it will benefit from the cleaner power of the amp, mainly).

Quote:

It's all very confusing. I did honestly think they were like a CD player, only being the soundcard outside the PC and yes, running on mains power but with a USB connection.

Well, hm yes, kind of!

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

kalmar wrote:

Also, this is one that Jeff Minter found, ages ago. It's *brilliant* - entirely serious and completely bats: http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techni ... iques.html

Amaze.

Quote:

Human beings do not like right angles

Align the slots in all screw heads so that the slots are parallel to the earth's surface.

If you have a vase of flowers or a pot in a plant pot in the listening room, stand the vase or the plant pot on a plain piece of BLUE paper.

NervousPete · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 14:56

Linky, because I love you:

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/32 ... spx#321274

BikNorton · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 10173

Quote:

For experimental purposes the batteries used in remote controls are an ideal battery to use. If the remote control takes two batteries, then you require four identical batteries - two to be put through the freezing/slow defrost process, and the other two to be left as the control ones (non treated). After freezing two batteries, insert them into the remote control and listen to some music for a short time. Then replace the (treated) batteries with the untreated batteries and see if you can listen to the same music with the same pleasure as before

The Egg · **Joined:** 16th Aug, 2008 **Posts:** 412

Those new Q Acoustics 2010's are nice. Richer Sounds currently have the (now obsolete but once highly rated) 1010 for £70 which I think is a bargain if you're after some more wallet saving goodness.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:07

NervousPete wrote:

Linky, because I love you:

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/32 ... spx#321274

You've just been recommended two £200 devices you don't need. Excellent!

I'm going to keep a running total.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:11

"Active speakers" probably aren't the best choice either, to be honest. Separate amp (even a cheap one to start with) and good speakers FTW, if you have the space.

devilman · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:12

Grim... wrote:

NervousPete wrote:

Linky, because I love you:

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/32 ... spx#321274

You've just been recommended two £200 devices you don't need. Excellent!

I'm going to keep a running total.

You need to add your hifi equipment into your sig too now.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:15

devilman wrote:

Grim... wrote:

NervousPete wrote:

Linky, because I love you:

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/32 ... spx#321274

You've just been recommended two £200 devices you don't need. Excellent!

I'm going to keep a running total.

You need to add your hifi equipment into your sig too now.

I have around £15,000 worth. It won't fit. I'll just put the important one in.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Grim... wrote:

I have around £15,000 worth. It won't fit. I'll just put the important one in.

Put it in your sig on the What Hi-Fi forum which you use to abuse idiots from.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:18

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Grim... wrote:

I have around £15,000 worth. It won't fit. I'll just put the important one in.

Put it in your sig on the What Hi-Fi forum which you use to abuse idiots from.

Good call!

Dimrill · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:19

Careful, you may get these hifi nerds over here telling us which games to buy.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:21

I've long been meaning to get an amp based on the TA-2024, to see what all the fuss is about.

A few years ago when it was released, various audiophile types decided to review it and rave about it and claim it was better than the usual things they dealt with, despite being 1/100th of the cost.

For example:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html

Quote:

Warning: this has been the most thrilling and incredible experience I've had with a component in, say, 25 years of HiFi listening. This website has existed since 1995, I've reviewed hundreds of HiFi components, inexpensive and ridiculously overpriced ones. I never - repeat - NEVER came across such a stunning piece of gear in all of these years.

- etc. Clearly the entire audiophile belief system about to crumble like an anecdotal house of cards.

I spy some on ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Class-T-Amp-Integ ... 3ca677bc33

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:26

It's a battery-powered amp?

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:27

Yep, that's why I'm interested. Very low power consumption.

edit: actually, the one I linked to isn't, but the original Sonic-Impact model (based on the same chip) ran on 4 AAs or something.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2009 15:32

Might make a good PC amp for a small room.

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DAC's - Explain
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DAC's - Explain Because I am Mr Ignorance

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DAC's - Explain
Because I am Mr Ignorance