Be Excellent To Each Other

Hello avid readers,

Today has not been a good day, and your patience and understanding is required.

My eldest, Darryl, has been working towards a career in the Navy (as a diver) for almost 12 months now. It's the first thing I've seen him get excited about to the point where he has actually revised for his interview and put his name forward to do extra courses at college to make him a more desirable candidate. He's already jumped through several hoops, passed his medical/psychometric tests etc.. and this morning has had his application thrown out because he has a final warning on his juvenile recored. His own fault you might argue, well not quite, and this is why we are so angry and frustrated.

At the beginning of the year Darryl was accused of assault by his ex girlfriend, but before you go thinking he's some mad wife beater, let me fill you in on a couple of things. His ex has come from, shall we say a 'troubled' family, under social services for most of her life she came to live with me for 18 months from her parents in Wales, they are not a nice family. While she was here, her and Darryl split up, so Darryl started hanging around with his friends more and of course I assured her I wasn't going to chuck her out. They just needed to be adult about it and get on with their lives until such a time as she found somewhere suitable to live. Unfortunatly she wasn't very happy with this and tried to do things so I would take sides with her and turn against Darryl (I don't think she would begin to understand the concept of unconditional love). This culminated in her trying to pay someone to beat her up so she could say that Darryl had done it and I would kick him out (my zero tollerance of domestice abuse is pretty well known to my family). Unfortunatly for her I'd been tipped off about her plans and actually overheard her trying to make the arrangements on the phone (she's not too bright either).

She moved out in January of this year and everything was well for a few months until Darryl got himself a new girlfriend. The lies started again and messing him about. A few months ago she accused him of assault and turned up at the unit she was in with red marks around her neck claiming that Darryl had tried to strangle her and that he had had his hands around her throat and had her pinned down for two minutes (but she never passed out fact fans).

Obviously the police had to respond to the situation and Darryl was put on bail. He was in court a couple of months ago and all ready to plead not guilty as he was adamant he hadn't done it and she was lying and that she had either made the marks herself or got someone else to do it.

I spoke to his solicitor who advised Darryl to plead guilt for a few reasons, 1. It would get it out of the way and he could concentrate on his college work, Navy application process and mediation processes. 2. Because it was an assault charge against a female the courts would be more likely to take her side as they are coming down hard on that sort of thing at the moment and 3. It would be over and done with before his 18th birthday and if this continued on for long enough and he lost it would be on his adult record for life. Now our two main concerns here were 1. He hadn't done it and 2. we we're concened about it affecting his Navy application. This is where I get pissed off, she assured us that she had dealt with many cases like this in the past and that in no uncertain terms would it effect his application to any of the armed forces. I promise you I quizzed her on this, but she was adamant it would be fine. Darryl was waiting to go back into the court room at the time so we weren't really in a situation where we would check this out, and, being a professional, we trusted her.

Right now I'm not sure who I'm more angry with the solicitor or Darryl's ex.

Sorry for the rant, I just needed to get it off my chest and wondered if the legal eagles here had any suggestions. If you're wondering (I know you probably aren't) Darryl's first offence was from a stop and search by police when he was twelve and he had our camping penknife on him. *sighs*

I've been looking around on the internet and can't find much information other than the warning will come off his record in five years, needless to say that's not really helpful at this time.

Bleugh.

What a load of bullshit.

Sorry to hear about this situation Jasmine, hope it gets fixed somehow.

Sorry to hear that, love. I'll drop Mr Chris an email and see what he has to say.

Thanks Zards, I'm trying to look at other things at the moment from a diving point of view. Not finding much legal stuff on the net though, I've resisted phoning the solicitors and shouting at them yet, just because I know I'd get the phone put down on me for being so damn angry.

Thanks myp, I did consider that but I know he's got his own stuff going on at the moment, I wouldn't want to impose on him.

That really is Very Poor. I'm at a loss for words.

Sounds to me like the solicitor gave you dodgy advice, but afaik, solicitors have their arses more covered against being sued for their advice than anyone else

You may have grounds to appeal to the Navy & a chance to at least put your case, if anything it will make him look keen (always a good thing for military service)

That is beyond frustrating. Jesus!

Sorry to hear that GJ, can you not get another solicitor?

Sorry Jazzy G. I have no advice, but... *hugs*

It's a tricky situation though, he'd be claiming to have lied in court.

Really? The plea itself doesn't count does it?

That is rubbish. Five years is such a long time as well. Did they knock him back because of the career he was applying for? I know in some of the Armed Forces you can get in with blemishes on your file for lower level roles but for more specialised jobs they can obviously afford to be very very picky which unfortunatly seems to be the case here. Would it be possible for him to enter in another role and perhaps work towards becoming a diver at some point? I don't know wether they would allow him to have one role and then aim for that but it may be worth investigating although obviously it is a much longer route.

How does he feel about studying? Perhaps he would enjoy further education related to his interest such as some sort of marine biology course or something? That would pass the necessary time to clear his record. Or he could look at possibly studying under sponsorship from the RN?

I hope you are able to find something that suits him, it really sucks to find something you want to do so much and then not even get the chance because of events outside of your control. Best of luck to him, although I'm sure he should be fine with a mother who obviously cares so much about seeing him do something he loves.

Hmm, not sure, perhaps not.

Hiya -

First thought is - christ, your solicitor has been somewhat negligent.

Second thought is - sorry to hear this has happened. His ex sounds proper fruitcake.

So. It sounds as if your solicitor has fucked up properly, and has given you negligent advice. Now, you can try and sue her for damages and stuff (and you could be successful - lawyers all have professional indemnity insurance for a reason), but that doesn't really help Darryl get the career he was after.

Problem the second is that he's pleaded guilty to an assault charge - as far as the legal system and HM Armed Forces are concerned that means he did it - you don't plead guilty unless you're guilty, says computer. You can try explaining all this to the Navy, I guess (and I would suggest you do), but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

At the very very very least I'd complain about your solicitor to the Solicitors Regulation Authority as she's been either negligent or obscenely incompetent. I'm not a criminal lawyer, but sitting here reading this I can't believe why on earth she thought pleading guilty would either be a good thing or be something the Navy wouldn't care about. Again, this doesn't help Darryl*, but that level of professional shitness requires a retributory response of some sort to my mind. Bloody lawyers.


*Well, directly, anyway - if you did complain to the SRA then it's something you could refer to in your communication with the Navy to substantiate why he wasn't really guilty.

It’s really disheartening reading stuff like this , in the real world you should never need to say you did something when you didn’t just because the system is that broken that it works in your favor.

And you'll never find a solicitor who will sue another solicitor.

EEE URRRR. Yes, yes you will. Suing another solicitor is, if you can believe it, *even more fun* than sending them a snotty letter pointing out the typos in their snotty letter.

Thanks Chris, I have (and still am) considering doing something about his solicitor, the problem is that I can't prove anything, it would be our word against hers.

Fruitcake = understatement.

He did explain it in his interview, unfortunatly as you say, he has admitted to assault in a court of law at the end of the day, the context would seem to be irrelevant.

Gill, according to the guy that interviewd him this morning, he has to wait the five years for it to come off his record whatever he applies for (he was going for Mine Clearance Diver). The next 12 months don't matter as he has another year of college anyway, but then he has another 4 years to wait (or so it seems at the moment). If we can find something diving related that he can do in the mean time then maybe that can soften the blow a little. *fingers crossed*

I'll have a nose at the SRA website and see what they suggest.

I was just going to say try search and resuce, as they always need folks...

That's often the case, though. The SRA are pretty good at investigating these things, and if she doesn't have a contemporaneous attendance note recording her advice to you as being different to what you say it is, she's going to have a tough time explaining herself. I'd definitely speak to them about it.




I hope something comes up. xx

We used to work with commercial divers regularly when I was offshore, usually when we had a rope wrapped around the propeller but occasionally for positioning things we were lowering into the water, etc. They make good money & ate all the food we had on the boat Offhand the only company I can remember is Atlas Marine & their website appears to be down but they were still operational last I heard. If I remember any others I let you know.

My sister currently works out in Egypt as a diving instructor. Things she did to get there include a 3 month volunteer diving conservation project, surveying reefs out in Fiji. Cost a few grand, and living was pretty basic, but she clocked up some serious diving hours - and any diving related work will depend on the dives you have done.

That said - outside the military, it is kind of tough to get diving work. Marine archeology, conservation, or salvage are the main areas unless you go for the whole marine construction/oil rig side. Places like Southampton Uni run courses on these I think (just recall from when my sister was looking for stuff).

Knowing Darryl, this is right up his street.

There's 2 or 3 separate companies developing wave power machines at the moment, and they all use divers I think. And there's the oil industry too of course.

And kovacs has some diving gear for sale but don't buy it unless he throws in a titanium cuttlefish nozzle.

I've just had a little chat with him and he's considering going to uni now (his idea, not mine), at least he's looking at his options instead of wallowing, that can only be good.

We're going to the dive show next month and they have a professional dive stand there, so it will be a good place to get some further information. I've already told him I'm going to try and get him trained up to instructor level, it's all money though.

Definitly think I need to do something Chris, that woman instucted Darryl on a life changing desicion, she was supposed to be working in his best interest, that's obviously not been the case here. Thank you for your advice, it is much appreciated.

Thanks everyone for your kinds words too, needed it today.

I'm going for a hot bath.

Got one now, so I can throw it in with the kit..

Shit! Sorry Kovacs, Darryl's had food poisoning this weekend and Dudesflame came off his skateboard so we sat and watched paint dry at the A&E. I'll reply now!

Surely incitement to perjury is a crime?

Possibly - most crimes can also be incited/aided and abetted etc, but I'm not sure copping a plea is seen as perjury. That crim lawyer who occasionally pops up on here would know.

Oh, that guy is ace.

A very entertaining chap, yes. Like a funny, engaging, not-mental Titler. An anti-Titler, if you will. Imagine what would happen if they met...

Who? This guy?

(Ironically, we'd probably have been better off with him )

I rest my case.

If you do I'll totally have to call a Bad Court Thingy.

That's why you're the law talking guy.

I love it when Mr Chris talks legal. It kind of makes up for the rest of the time.

Well, this seems to be a remarkably good coincidence - I only come by here when time permits, around once a month or so, and it just so happens there are two (!) threads talking about criminal law. You couldn't make it up, etc.

Anyway. This is a bit more interesting (and important) than the theft thread, so I'll put my tuppence worth in here. (Bear in mind I'm away from my books, so all this is just off the top of my head.)

Boring jurisprudential point first: perjury doesn't apply here. There is a bit of debate over this point - some have argued that technically, every single person who enters a "not guilty" plea and then is found guilty has, by the letter of the law, committed perjury. However, the usual way of getting around this is to explain that (a) a plea isn't evidence entered under oath, and (b) perjury only applies to evidence given during the course of a trial, and the trial only takes place after - and because of - the plea (i.e. the plea itself isn't actually part of the trial, it's the final part of the process determining whether there's going to *be* a trial.) Anyway, I don't think anyone in this country has *ever* been prosecuted for perjury in relation to their *plea* in criminal proceedings.

I would be astonished, frankly, if any criminal proceedings could be brought against the solicitor. There is no such thing as "incitement to (commit) perjury" (indeed, for the last year and a half there hasn't been any such crime as "incitement to" almost anything, these things now being covered by "encouraging or assisting crime" under sections 44-46 the new Serious Crime Act 2007, ss.44-46); the most relevant offence you'd potentially be looking at by that line of argument would be perverting the course of justice, which is usually taken very more seriously. But this isn't that, either. On a really basic level, an offence is only committed where the conduct in question is unreasonable and deliberately meant to achieve the purpose of the offence (I'm paraphrasing really broadly, but this is the gist).

Anyway. Less technicalities and more practical help. Goddess: Mr Chris has already been through all the salient points - it's a massive hassle and almost impossible to get the conviction itself removed, the SRA is your best avenue for redress in terms of the advice that you state was given to your son, and an open complaint file with them *might* carry a tiny amount of weight with the Navy recruitment office, though I'd say right from the outset (based on nothing, just the way it looks) that such a prospect seems pretty unlikely.

From your description it does appear (purely on the face of it) that the advice your son was given *may* have been negligent, but - and I'm aware how pompous and condescending this is going to sound, unfortunately it's what will likely be going through the mind of any solicitor you approach - it's really important to be absolutely crystal clear on what you were advised and what exactly was said.

Prior to call, I worked as a paralegal in a firm of solicitors and saw a lot of complaints, and most of them were baseless - nearly all of them were situations where someone had fundamentally misunderstood the advice they were given, and where their account differed substantially from what the solicitor (or the barrister they'd employed) stated they had actually said. Quite often, the advice the solicitor was claimed to have given would be something no sane and competent solicitor would ever have said, and the fault stemmed from the client going off with the wrong impression. Not always, but almost always. In criminal cases in particular, a scared, bewildered defendant is quite capable of getting totally the wrong end of the stick and then in hindsight convincing themselves the wording used was a lot more specific in terms of what they believed they were being told to do. As Mr Chris said, therefore, if you make a complaint, be aware that the solicitor there should have made an attendance note, and it's entirely possible that that note won't tally at all with what you were told. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not accusing you of being wrong, let alone making something up, but it will very likely be the default assumption you will have to battle against.

In broader terms, re: professionalism I can't really speak for solicitors, but barristers are entirely allowed to tell someone who insists they're not guilty to plead guilty anyway, provided that advice is reasonable (it may not sound as though this could ever be reasonable, but I have advised clients to do this in the past, usually because they are actually transparently obviously guilty, and/or they're so shifty/inconsistent/arsey/useless under questioning that a court will definitely find them guilty, and/or the evidence against them is overwhelming and they have nothing at all to counter it with other than saying they didn't do it (and without having any of the necessary details, it seems this might have been the situation in your son's case); in any of those situations, there's realistically just no point bothering to plead not guilty when you could save everyone's time and money by just pleading guilty at the earliest possible opportunity and getting an automatic discount on sentence, plus whatever other benefits might be there (like the ones you say the solicitor brought up, like not getting an adult record etc.) From what you say, other than the Navy recruitment part, if the solicitor's assumption was that he would definitely lose, then their advice wasn't necessarily negligent in any of those respects.

Now, the really bothersome bit is the solicitor's insistence that his Navy application wouldn't be affected - I can't see how any legal representative could possibly provide competent advice on Navy recruitment policy, unless they'd specifically researched it before meeting you and been assured this wouldn't be a problem. One of two things will have happened here: the solicitor made a note saying "I advised the client and his mum that this wouldn't affect his Navy application", in which case hello negligence, or the solicitor made a note which made no mention of you ever discussing the Navy (or even specifically saying she gave no such advice). I'd say my first stop would be to contact the solicitor and ask for a copy of their attendance note from the hearing, and see what happens from there.

Civil case against the ex? You know, like when they did OJ and he was found guilty, only backwards (and yes I know that's america I'm just asking). Win that and send a video to the Navy, or sensible similar suggestion.

I'll talk to my diving manager tomorrow and find out about stuff as well. Might be more career options out there.

Fucking women though... snakes with tits, they really are (no offence).

Also character references for the appeal at the Navy (which I believe you can and must do). Tutors, doctors, etc.

Is there perhaps another way into the navy where ho does the regular bollocks for a year or two then gets to be a diver full time?

Other stuff maybe as I think of it. Good luck Daryll.

Please tell me this means there was a Jovial Crime Act.

There was not.

Are you being serious?

I'm always serious. In point of fact, the original Snap! lyric was I'm serious as La Revanche / When I say rhythm is a dancer. I made them change it with pedantic legal threats.

You should come here more often.

I like this one. Can we keep him (or her)?

Just keep Him / Her / It away from Lewie's love life and Zio's impregnating skills and we'll be fine.

i thought the navy was happy with anybody these days?

anyway, sorry to here it GJ, as a non ik citizen i can offer only sympathies i'm afraid