Be Excellent To Each Other

Some of you will remember the story of my pal trying to sell a phone. It was a HTC touch to be exact.

So after about two months Ebay finally gave him the go ahead to relist it (that was nice of the cunts eh?).

So he relisted it.. It sold.. The buyer messed him around for over a week and then said "I don't have the money to pay for it".

Nearly a month later, and getting incredibly irate my pal decides to list it one last time. It has to be sold because it cost him $700 back in January and it's just gathering dust.

It sold for $500 or there abouts. He was happy with that. Three days later the buyer paid him by paypal. "GREAT !" he said... or is it?

He went to his paypal account and the funds were there.. Yippee !. Went to the withdraw funds section and tried to send them to his bank acc. Nuh uh. Paypal refused to let him extract the payment. He contacted the buyer asking him why that had happened and the buyer said that maybe the funds were being held because they needed to clear from his CC?. Five days later and the funds are still there, and still cannot be withdrawn.

So my friend phones Paypal. And, Paypal explain to him that the reason the payment is being held is because my friend now needs to send this person the phone, without a penny, and then when the dude recieved the phone they will release the payment. And, apparently, this is now standard proceedure for ALL sellers selling via Ebay USA and Paypal are basically playing god. So, he now needs to have faith that the buyer will admit that he has the phone. But what if he's not happy with it? Basically Paypal will give the buyer his money back and ask him. Get, ASK him to return the $500 phone.

Is that shit even legal? Can Paypal basically hold onto people's money now? Apparently the buyer CAN NOT retract the money. So, if Ryan doesn't ship the phone the money sits in limbo.

Fuckin' BS tbh. He's already said this is the last time he's selling anything on Ebay and I can't fucking blame him. The only people Ebay and Paypal seem to want to protect is themselves, whilst fragrantly shitting on anyone who uses either.

Perhaps it is to make sure that the person actually sends the item he should.

WTFF?

That's unreal.

Well it's quite clearly to avoid paying any insurance that you are paying for. Apparently their insurance isn't worth a fuck any way because it's impossible to claim.

Tell me about it. I was under the impression that when you buy something you pay for it and then you get it.

I might be having a slow day, but I can't see the issue..

The buyer could get the phone, claim that he hasn't received it and the seller would get fuck all.

How is that different, than pay pal pulling the money out of the sellers account if the same claim is made in the UK?

Well apparently my friend needs to supply Paypal with a tracking number.

It's all just way too much BS tbh.

I don't know if the rules and laws are different in the UK but a friend of mine out in the US sold a car amplifier for $1200 on there once BIN. The buyer paid, he withdrew the funds to his bank and when it had cleared he sent the amp. The amp got there, the buyer began a dispute saying the amp was not as described. Paypal withdrew the money back from my friend's bank account and to this day he has not recieved the amp back. So that's basically a $1200 loss and my friend has basically been fucked over and short of driving about 2000 miles and knocking on this wanker's door he won't get his amp back.

As I say, Paypal will do absolutely anything to stop themselves having to pay insurance out, including fuck over whoever they have to. My friend has also tried to remove his bank details from his account but can't. He's phoned Paypal and asked them to delete his details and remove his bank details but they just refuse.

I don't think they can take anything if there isn't a direct debit set up, can they?

Well they did and they have. This is not an isolated incident, basically the same exact thing has happened and been put on youtube many times, in exactly the same way that it happened to my friend with the amp.

If a paypal dispute results in the buyer's favour then paypal CAN take the cash back on their behalf. And that's probably why you cannot remove your bank details from there no matter how much you want to.

Has there been any legal challenge over that? As that is tantamount to theft on PayPal's part.

It's always been like this. Paypal is acting as an Escrow service of sorts.
I can't see the problem, to be honest. Send the phone, you know?

This is why I refuse to PayPal for any high-value transactions unless I absolutely trust the buyer implicitly.

PayPal, despite basically being a bank, are not regulated by the FSA or any other authority, which is precisely why they don't tout themselves as a bank. They can do with your money whatever the fuck they want and there's very little you can do about it.

Although I daresay there are some statutory rights in the UK that would let you try and claw it back if it happened to you.

//edit: I've just discovered this is apparently no longer the case and they are now FSA-regulated in the UK as an electronic money institution.

PAYPAL isn't a bank and should not be treated as such.

I really don't see the issue, of them holding the money until both parties are happy. At the moment they can just take the money out of your bank.

Plus JC if your friend is not happy and Paypal refuse to delete his bank detail, get his bank to change his bank details.

The issue is that, if the buyer receives the phone and is perfectly happy, but claims to PayPal that he isn't, PayPal will immediately give the buyer their money back, and then it's basically down to the buyer's goodwill whether they send the phone back or not.

This isn't an isolated case, they've been doing this for ages. They screw over sellers every opportunity they get because it's the buyers that make PayPal money.

Yes, but it's not Paypal's fault the chap has committed fraud.

Would you? knowing that the way it was set up was seriously weighted in favour of the buyer and you could be waving goodbye to a $500 phone?

Infact, would you trust anyone with something worth $500 knowing there was a risk you could totally lose out?

It's just going to be a stalemate. Because quite simply my pal won't send the phone until he has the money. Irony is they won't even release the shipping funds so he's expected to take those out of his own pocket on a chance the buyer will report the item as recieved.

but if paypal had given the seller the money, they can just pull it back anyway, if the buyer disputes.

The only difference is Paypal now hold the money.. less hassle for them i presume.

And it's not my friend's either and he is the ONLY one losing out because Paypal will still get their fees regardless.

As I say, my friend is the ONLY party here expected to partake in any risk whatsoever. Which is fucking bullshit no matter what way you look at it.

What they're doing is treating everyone like criminals to protect themselves. Which is totally bad business practice. All they will end up doing is making people stop selling things on Ebay.

JC if paypal released the money to you pal now, and the buyer said he had not recived the phone, after 7 days Paypal will take the money back of the seller anyway...

same end result.

They are not treating eberyone like criminals, they are saving them selfs of having to pull the money back from the seller.

edit: That is why I am thinking I am missing something if you are so angry..

Well I still think it's BS. especially when they gave my friend no clue or inklin that they had changed the rules. Now they expect him to abide by this new rule they just made up?

Let's put it this way.

You list something on Ebay expecting to see the funds before you ship it. Had you known you would get fuck all until this stranger was happy? well you'd likely not have listed it.

You then go to get your money but Paypal won't let you have it.

Would you send the phone?

That's like me offering you a computer for sale, taking the money and then making up some BS rules.

Fair point paypal changed the rules and might have not said anything, so you are expecting PAYPAL to give the money, even though the phone has not been sent.

The money is being held until it has been sent... kinda makes sense..

I don't particularly disagree with this exact situation, but I do disagree with Ebay/Paypal as a whole and only use them for small items/transactions. There have been far too many reports of people getting completely screwed out of items and money with Ebay/Paypal refusing to help resolve the matter.

Indeed, but surely as the holder of escrow they should be investigating the situation before just giving the guy his money back?

Sometimes they do investigate, but on an alarming number of occasions they don't.

They should at least wait until delivery confirmation of the phone being returned. Otherwise they're not an escrow service, they're a fraudulent buyer enablement service.

Dear god I hope Amazon don't catch on. It's a bad thing because customers will be largely unaware of it. Most of the Amazon customers don't check their email and I expect it works the same via ebay as well for the most part. As such you'll never get confirmation by the customer, of the goods having arrived. Thus you never get your money.

He could use a reputable escrow service like http://www.escrow.com instead of Paypal.

This is actually a better set up. As it was before, Paypal would have released the money, then if the guy claimed never to receive the phone, they'd claw back the money potentially after you'd spent it.

The real issue is not being able to validate the receipt of the item - hence forcing you to use more expensive delivery methods - or the quality of the item. Maybe you should send the item to Paypal, where they can validate that the condition of the item is as described, then send it on to the buyer? That would be a proper escrow service.

Surely such a thing would cost Paypal too much money to operate?

It's gay. I think the whole thing is rigged. You know, like they do in America.

how will it cost more than it does now. Plus they can earn interest on the money in their account.

Well the only ones losing out will be them. After the whole charade my friend will NEVER EVER send out this phone until he has the money.

If Ebay did something to protect people then he wouldn't feel the way he does. Fact is they don't give a fucking shit.

Recently someone was selling Alienware software (the FX command center) on Ebay for $50. 200 or so people from the Alienware forum complained and Ebay didn't remove the auction. And they wonder why they're getting so much fucking stick?

They think they're a law unto themselves. And, when you're a big powerful company you make millions of enemies. They'll get scuppered sooner or later.

Oh and I just got invoiced for selling my AW chassis. £12.80. It sold for £100. So I hope they like the taste of that lump they just took out of my arse because it's the last they'll ever fucking get.

Also, another one of their new rules is if you are a business on there you MUST give free shipping. Wonder why that is? probably because their insatiable greed says that people were sick of paying their fucking fees so over charging for shipping. So instead of lowering those fees and making people happy they just incense people's anger at them even further.

Unfucking believable how they treat people tbh.

there a business there to make money. Also isn't your mate breaking his contract that he agreed to when selling on ebay

I'm sure after all the shit with Nigerian scammers and deadbeats he won't care tbh.

Both times HE had to do all the hard work. HE had to do all the investigation. Infact, the Nigerian became so persistent that he phoned the police. All of a sudden this Nigerians address in England changed to one in Maryland. Which all got a bit creepy.

Second time around the buyer basically said "I don't have the money to pay for it". He is still an active Ebay user, didn't even get bad feedback (because you're not allowed to leave it as a seller any more).

So I'm sure his response to their agreement will be "bite me, motherfuckers".

if you don't like ebay don't use it. He has sold the phone so post it get the money and never use ebay again. Everyone happy.

Haven't read all the replies, but I'm pretty sure there's currently a rule in place where if you have less than about 10 positive feedback as a seller, you can't withdraw money from your paypal account until the buyer has confirmed he has received the item you sold him (and/or left positive feedback).

Almost certain this is to deter people from starting new dodgy selling accounts with the sole intention of ripping off buyers by selling non-existant (usally electrical) goods and then doing a runner with the cash (something that has been rife on Ebay in the past).

Not sure if this is fair or not, but I think that's the situation at the moment.

So that begs the question - JohnCoffey : Is your friend an Ebay newbie or seasoned seller (with lots - ie. more than 10 - positive feedback) ?

Edit - I could be totally wrong about this (and my figures/percentages might be off), but I'm pretty sure I read about this new-ish rule fairly recently on the Ebay message boards.

He's been selling since Ebay began. Only has about 50 feedback because he usually only sells large items (cars, motorbikes etc).

Very wealthy bloke and very honest. I think that's why he's so pissed about it.

Ebay has gone to shit. They don't want Joe Public using them as a electronic car boot sale.

Remember my video camera story from a few weeks back? I list a camera, someone wins it and then tries to negotiate on price.

Paypal is a useful service but it is another way of screwing their users.

Well hopefully the car booty can be reborn again. Ebay has always pissed me off tbh because people all of a sudden think their old shit that would have gone in the bin is worth a mint.

I tend to stay away from car bootys because stuff there is so cheap I usually end up buying a load of crap.

What is to stop the phone seller using a completely trackable service (like UPS or somesuch) on the instruction that it is only delivered to the actual named customer (who has to provide i.d. like when concert tickets and such are delivered)?

And then, what's to stop the buyer saying there was just a few pebbles in the box and keeping the phone and the money? Apart from honesty etc.

OK update. So he phones paypal ages ago. They promise him he has absolutely nothing to worry about.

He finally plucks up the courage to send the phone... Sends by UPS, it arrives ! yay !

Goes to paypal to withdraw his money... erm, can't.

Goes back to paypal the day after to withdraw his money.. erm, can't.

Four days later he still can't get the money out. What the fuck? Phones Paypal today..

"Oh.. Well sorry sir, but once the item has been delivered and signed for you must wait three business days before the funds become available to you.. Then you can spend your money.."

So my friend says. "But I don't want to spend the fucking money I want it in my bank account !"

"Oh, well that's very easy then ! all you do is go through the withdrawl proceedure and in 3 more business days the money will be in your checking account !"

So let's get this straight then..

Now when you sell something and take payment by paypal you have to send your item via UPS or FedX meaning no PO meaning expensive shipping. That's going to take what? about 2-3 business days. Then the item gets there and you have to wait another 3 business days for your money to be in your paypal account, then 3 more business days to get it out into your checking account.

So, all told that's 9 business days, weekends don't count so you could be waiting up to two weeks to finally get your money.

Fuck.that.

Now I know rules and regs are different here in the U.K so this may not apply to us, but fuck that. Not only do they hold onto your cash for nearly two fucking weeks making interest out of it but then they charge you 3%.

Unbelievable.

Did my accounts last week, noticed I paid PP over 500 quid in fees over the last year.

3% fees is actually quite reasonable in the field of small business credit card charging houses, of course.

Edit -- why didn't your mate just say "paypal not accepted" on his auction, JC?

You can't do that any more, can you? I thought PayPal was mandatory now.

And so it should be, IMHO.

My understanding was, they tried that in Australia and were told "stop that" by the government.

No, they tried to go for "only Paypal" in Australia, and were rightly told to get fucked. You have to offer Paypal, but you can also offer alternatives.

Indeed, this is correct, I just checked here.

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