Electric Trains

myp · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:20

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8164070.stm

Often the government (and governments in general) are accused of being short-sighted when it comes to policy, but this seems a good idea, no? It won't pay for itself for 40 years, mind.

metalangel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:23

Eight years of overrunning engineering works affecting one of the worst performing TOCs (FGW)? Oh yes, it's great.

Electrifying this line is nearly fifty years overdue, though.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:23

I heard about it on te radio this moring.. it does seem a good idea..

As long as it does pay for itself.. it is a good thing.

metalangel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:30

I hope the fact there'll be wires all the way will mean they'll extend the CrossRail service to Reading as opposed to just Maidenhead - Reading is a huge commuter town and to NOT have trains running from it straight to the middle of London and beyond is idiocy.

This will be serious disruption for the next eight years - stringing up OHLE is a very complex process, especially inside the fairly cramped Severn Tunnel. The fancy automatic wiring machines are all well and good but it's still a huuuuuge project.

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

Apparently its going to be a reet bitch to do it through the severn tunnel. I read something yesterday by an expert on the subject who doubted it was even possible.

MetalAngel wrote:

I hope the fact there'll be wires all the way will mean they'll extend the CrossRail service to Reading as opposed to just Maidenhead - Reading is a huge commuter town and to NOT have trains running from it straight to the middle of London and beyond is idiocy.

And again, I read yesterday that crossrail could still be cancelled.

metalangel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:47

A lot of folks doubted it was possible - in fact, some said it was even a case to help in the approval of a Severn Barrage as a new electrified line could run across the top of it. However, I've seen a Network Rail document which says it is in fact possible to electrify it... whether this can just be wires hung very close to the tunnel roof or digging out the existing track to lower it to provide enough clearance - I don't know. The Thameslink wires get very low as they run through the tunnels from King's Cross through to Moorgate.

The tunnel is a nightmare as it is anyway - they have to pump thousands of gallons of water out of it constantly or it'll flood (they broke a spring when building it) and the linespeed is only 75mph and there can only be one train in each direction in the tunnel at a time.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38651

*makes mental note to avoid severn tunnel if possible*

TheAlbin0Kid · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 13:17

You'd think they'd have built up enough knowledge when constructing one, two, three, four, five and six tunnels to have done it properly the severnth time...

kalmar · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 13:45

It is a good idea.

WTB · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 14497

I'm very surprised to learn that this line isn't electric already

Coming from the North East with our awesome East Coast Mainline and everything, we just assume everyone else is as good, if not better than us.

Dimrill · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 14:19

Yeah, but the tunnels up North weren't constructed by awesome Isambard Kingdom "I'll get a penny out of my lung with some pliers" Brunel.

romanista · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 15:04

good idea, always surprised there aren't more electric lines in the uk

now reverse the beechley axe!

metalangel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 16:08

romanista wrote:

good idea, always surprised there aren't more electric lines in the uk

now reverse the beechley axe!

They are, gradually. In the time I've worked on the railways, in Wales alone...

-the Vale of Glamorgan line has reopened to passengers with two new stations
-the Ebbw Vale line has reopened to passengers with seven stations on the site of previous ones
-Abercynon station has been rebuilt completely
-Pontypridd station has been partially rebuilt (it's still a disgrace, though)
-a fourth platform has been built at Newport
-a seventh platform has been built at Cardiff Central
-the Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen colliery line has reopened in West Wales
-every Valley Lines platform has been extended to accommodate a six carriage train
-platform 2 at Merthyr Vale has been reopened
-a new passing loop at Talerddig (near Aberystwyth) which, when the new ERTMS signalling system comes online, will allow for an hourly service to Aberystwyth (it's only two hourly at the moment)
-a huge new train depot at Machynlleth (near Aberystwyth)
-Wrexham and Chester stations have both been renovated
-there is a train operator running a dedicated service between Wrexham, Shrewsbury and London Marylebone.

And plans are now afoot to:

-reopen platform 5 at Cardiff Central, and build an entirely new platform 8
-reopen the original platform 1 at Cardiff Queen Street, and build an entirely new platform 5 (there's three at the moment)
-extend the Ebbw Vale line all the way to a brand new station in Ebbw Vale town centre

A lot of this is because people had the good foresight to not just sell off former railway land after the Beeching axes and so they've remained dormant and overgrown but still railway property, ready in case they were ever needed again. And they are, all over the country, slowly being restored.

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

That good work in wales is slightly detracted from by them rebuilding Moor Street station in Birmingham. They took it from a grotty hut to a lovely looking station, all decorated in lovely 50s railway era style. Is grand.

Only about £20m was spunked on platforms 3 and 4, which 5 years later still dont have rails connected to them.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Why is the platform numbering in Cardiff Central so pissed? We have a platform 0 but no platform 5? And isn't there a half-platform too?

metalangel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 18:19

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Why is the platform numbering in Cardiff Central so pissed? We have a platform 0 but no platform 5? And isn't there a half-platform too?

Platform 0 is so named because it's before 1. There was a platform 5, it was a west-facing bay platform in the middle of what is now platforms 3 and 4. They're planning to reopen it.

I don't know what you mean by 'half-platform' unless you're referring to the fact it's 3a/b and 4a/b.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

MetalAngel wrote:

Platform 0 is so named because it's before 1.

This is the logic I expect of computer scientists, not people who live in the real world.

Quote:

There was a platform 5, it was a west-facing bay platform in the middle of what is now platforms 3 and 4. They're planning to reopen it. I don't know what you mean by 'half-platform' unless you're referring to the fact it's 3a/b and 4a/b.

That's what I mean by half-platform. You can pull into it, but you have to leave again by the same rail.

metalangel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 23, 2009 18:25

That's what they call a 'bay platform' and Cardiff Central doesn't have any right now. There are a large number of storage sidings around the station which might look like this, though.

End of an Era · **Joined:** 25th Nov, 2008 **Posts:** 1041

myp wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8164070.stm

Often the government (and governments in general) are accused of being short-sighted when it comes to policy, but this seems a good idea, no? It won't pay for itself for 40 years, mind.

Probably a good idea, but given the fantasy figures talked about recently in bailing out the banks, £1 Bn over 40 years sounds like pissing in the wind.

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:54

1bn is peanuts, why is anyone even arguing about it? Electrify the fucking lot.

I mean, they just wasted 0.6bn in *not* rolling out ID cards.

This thing is actually useful in some way.

metalangel · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:04

Network Rail wrote:

The government has announced a £1.1 billion scheme that will support Network Rail's plans to expand the electrified network. Under the scheme, detailed plans will now be worked through focusing on the electrification of the Great Western Main Line between London, Reading, Oxford, Newbury, Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea, with the work to be completed within eight years. In parallel, planning will begin immediately for the electrification of the line between Liverpool and Manchester, to be completed within four years.

The government will also consider the costs and benefits of wider electrification, with particular reference to the Midland Main Line between London and Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield, as well as the routes between Manchester and Preston, and Liverpool and Preston.

This follows our strategy for electrification that we published in May 2009. The strategy, currently under consultation, outlined the clear benefits of a rolling programme of electrification: lower CO2 emissions, higher levels of train reliability and availability and lower leasing costs. The superior acceleration of electric trains can also help reduce journey times while providing more seats than diesel trains, therefore increasing capacity.

“Electrification will bring great benefits to everyone who uses these lines,” said Chris Rayner, Western route director. “It also brings great challenges to everyone who keeps services running, and customers and our neighbours informed and satisfied while the work is going on. It's going to be a very demanding but also a very interesting and exciting time for everyone involved!”

Jo Kaye, LNW route director, commented: "Electrifying one of the lines between Manchester and Liverpool will bring a major boost to the local economy of both cities. Commuting will become quicker and faster journey times will encourage inward investment and increased tourism.

"It also opens up the possibility of new journey opportunities in the future, and should act as the catalyst for even more electrification on key commuter routes as a way to manage the anticipated growth in demand for rail travel."

“There's a real appetite for electrification on the Midland lines,” added Dyan Crowther, Midland & Continental route director. “Saving time from journeys will really help to attract new customers to rail, as well as keeping existing customers satisfied with the improved service they get.”

Some colleagues have quite rightly pointed out that the plan does NOT have any diversionary route around the Severn Tunnel... so in the event of the tunnel being closed, there'll be no way for the trains to get between South Wales and Brizzle short of being dragged there by a Thunderbird loco (assuming there'll even be any for these new trains). There's a similar problem on the ECML.

Another colleague has wondered if the recently installed signal gantries as part of the recent SWML resignalling project have enough clearance for the OHLE.

I was too busy chuckling last night at the 6 o'clock news, an FGW spokesman (wearing no name badge or company stuff) was standing on Cardiff Central (ATW station) saying about all the benefits for FGW passengers... and as he stammers out his words, an ATW train rolls past on the platform behind him. There was a lovely moment just as the clip ended when he suddenly glanced to his side at the train and realized Arriva logos had been everywhere but not one FGW logo.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:57

In the unlikely event anyone's still interested in this, someone at NR has produced a list of just how well electrification in the UK works - in terms of the percentage of electrified routes that have diesel traction running on them.

Quote:

WCML (VWC) - Birmingham to Edinburgh / Glasgow: 100% diesel under the wires.
WCML (TPE) - Manchester Airport to Edinburgh / Glasgow: 89% diesel under the wires (209 of 234 miles).
WCML (VWC) - Euston to Chester: 88%; and Holyhead: 60% diesel under the wires (158 of 179 / 263 miles).
ECML (XC) - York to Edinburgh: long distance trains with between 32% & 68% diesel under the wires. Some core examples:
Edinburgh to Birmingham via Leeds – 68% 237 of 346 miles)
Edinburgh to Bristol via Leeds – 57% (247 of 434 miles)
Edinburgh to Plymouth via Leeds – 44% (247 of 562 miles)
Edinburgh to Penzance via Leeds – 38% (247 of 642 miles)
Aberdeen to Penzance via Leeds – 32% (247 of 772 miles)
Newcastle to Reading via Doncaster – 38% (115 of 303 miles)
ECML (NXEC) - Kings Cross to Aberdeen / Inverness: long distance trains with about 70% diesel under the wires (actually 75% & 68%, with 395 of 523 / 580 miles).
ECML (GC) - Kings Cross to Sunderland: 85% diesel under the wires (229 of 267 miles).
ECML (HT) - Kings Cross to Hull: 76% diesel under the wires (156 of 204 miles).
SW (SWT) - Lymington Branch - EMUs soon to be replaced by 100% diesel over third rail.

If we really are trying to go green by running more electric trains then these routes should have been looked at, and the TOCs forced to buy electric trains so that diesels were no longer required to work under the wires.

myp · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:00

So you're saying that these lines are electrified, but they're still running diesel trains on them?

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:00

That is crazy.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:03

Yup. To give examples, Manchester Airport station isn't electrified, which means they have a DMU running those services to Scotland despite the vast majority of that train's journey being on the electrified WCML.

Likewise, there's a lot of HSTs and Voyager-derivatives running on the electrified ECML out of King's Cross/St Pancras because they're going to destinations that aren't electrified. But majority of their journey is on the ECML, which is. This is why it's entirely possible to turn up at King's Cross for a train to Edinburgh and despite the line being electrified the entire way, you get onto a (diesel) HST.

So, yes, it's stupidity, that you run a diesel train for 250 miles under OHLE and then the last ten miles to its destination aren't electrified.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:04

Worse is that these are diesel-electric trains (aren't they?), which could easily have a pantograph on top and just use the diesel for the non-electrified bit.

Bit typical isn't it.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:11

Er... that really, really complicates things, actually.

Most DMUs are diesel-mechanical which means they are directly driven by the diesel engine through a hydraulic transmission. Proper seperate locomotives (which are practically extinct in terms of hauling revenue passenger trains these days) were indeed diesel electric in that the diesel engine generated electricity for the traction motors.

While in theory you can power these traction motors with a third rail/overhead input, it's really complex to do so mechanically - in fact, there's only one type of locomotive in the UK that does it, and - again - these don't run in revenue service much. There's also the disadvantage that when you're running in electric mode, you're still hauling a diesel engine and fuel tank around.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:16

Ah, I thought they still used seperate diesel-electrics for the long distance routes.

Pulling both power sources around is a problem with any hybrid, but as a temporary solution until 100% of the route is electrified it would still be an advantage - any you'd only need a little engine and comparatively very little fuel.

But if they're not even running electric trains on 100% electric lines, it's probably asking a bit much.

I thoroughly dislike those DMUs, especially the crappy, smoky turbostars they have around here.

Anyway, they should sort it the hell out.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:27

Yeah, that's what this guy is saying - rather than electrify the whole line to Swansea, they should spend the money filling in these little 20 mile gaps so that TOCs could run electric traction all the way.

Pretty much all passenger trains in the UK are now multiple units, and the only diesel-electric ones (that is, that use electric motors as I described earlier) are the Voyagers and their 'Meridian' siblings.

If you listened when on the really old DMUs, you could hear the driver shifting gears!

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:34

I like the Voyager, looks and sounds like a proper train.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:50

Really? I find them cramped (the inward slanted walls to allow for the tilting) and deafeningly loud (engine under every carriage). The gentle whoosh of an HST after a long trip on a Voyager is eye-opening.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:57

Oh, I must be thinking of something else. large shiny red train with a separate engine at the front? Goes through Inverkeithing station.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:06

Like this? While the engine is new, the carriages could well be over 40 years old.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:08

Hmm. Err, possibly. I shall "spot" it next time I see it and report back.

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:11

Don't forget your lemon cordial, chicken and cucumber sammiches, and a scarf your mother knitted for you.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:13

And vitally, a tatty notebook with a biro attached with a piece of string.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:07

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009 ... ail-adonis

Quote:

The government has made the demise of domestic air travel an explicit policy target for the first time by aiming to replace short-haul flights with a new 250mph high-speed rail network.

Why didn't they come up with all this sensible shit 10 years ago?

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:16

Idiots. Voyager is clearly this one:

myp · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:22

I can't see that picture, but I'm guessing it's something to do with Captain Janeway.

Malabelm · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:23

myp wrote:

I can't see that picture, but I'm guessing it's something to do with Captain Janeway.

It was actually Ashton Kutcher.

I read this thread title as "Tantric Trains".

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:26

myp wrote:

I can't see that picture, but I'm guessing it's something to do with Captain Janeway.

I'll asciify it, just for you:

Code:

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Well, that was shit.

kalmar · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:27

That's an extreme close-up, right?

myp · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:30

Is that her eyeball?

metalangel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:33

Heh, that's the best part of Voyager.

Malabelm · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:45

myp wrote:

Is that her eyeball?

Lower.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:47

New thread for ASCII idiocy?

myp · **Posted:** Wed Aug 05, 2009 15:47

Malabar Front wrote:

myp wrote:

Is that her eyeball?

Lower.

Lower eyelid?!?

Be Excellent To Each Other

Electric Trains
long-term thinking from Gordie

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Be Excellent To Each Other

Electric Trains long-term thinking from Gordie

Who is online

Electric Trains
long-term thinking from Gordie