Be Excellent To Each Other

There is a tv ad on at the moment (I think its for Sky Sports or the ashes or summat), that has confused me.
It utters the words "an Historic victory"
Is this correct?
which is it?
An historic victory
A historic victory

You wouldn't say "I went to an history lesson" would you?
surely.."I went to A history lesson"?

I think you can pretty much use either, on the basis that it depends how hard you pronounce your 'h's.

Yup. "I went to an 'istory lesson" is fine if that's how you talk.
Anyone that writes it down is a tool, though.

Fuck you.

Is that really how you'd write it?

There is a misguided belief by some people that using 'an' in front of any word beginning with 'H' is grammatically correct, no matter the pronunciation.

It is, of course, better to hit these people with spanners than attempt a sensible discussion.

Not I. However I do have my own particular idiom with AN. For which I blame Bottom.

This thread disappoints me.

I like to think the thread title is secretly ironic.

FACTS:

Any word that begins with an 'h' that is derived from Latin 'should' be prefixed with 'an'. This is because back in olden times, the 'h' on these words was silent. So 'an historic' is correct, but 'an house' is not.

However, language constantly evolves. Saying 'a historic' and 'an historic' are both equally fine, these days.

Mwuhaha

But it's not silent any more, is it? And given that "an" only exists because saying "a" before a vowel sound is tricky (see also: mutations in Welsh), I think "an historic" is at best a clumsy formulation.

You're entitled to your opinion. I quite like it.

Sky reporters clearly think it add gravitas.

It just sounds wrong to me.

I like it because it's technically correct.

It's all about how it sounds, same with acronyms and other abreviations.

"An FBI study concluded that 55% of rapists are from Boston"

"A UFO was spotted flying over Nottingham, yesterday"

Malc

No it's not. See my post.

'Anistoric' works

'Anhistoric' doesn't

'Aneffbeeeye' works

'Anyoueffoh' doesn't

Malc seems right.

Malc

It's got nothing to do with acronyms! At all!

It has in the real world.

Yes it is, all grammar works this way. that's why stuff like

"Me and John are going to the shops"

is wrong.

Malc

'An historic' being correct has nothing to do with acronyms, in the real world or imaginary.

Ooh, I know that one. Take out the 'and John' bit, change 'are' to 'am' and say it to yourself.

"Me am going to the shops" is clearly wrong.

It does in as much as it's how you pronounce the word historic and how you pronounce your acronyms that determins if there should be an "an" or an "a" preceding it

Malc

5 points to MrDavPaz

Malc

Racist.

That's got nothing to do with what we're talking about. Language evolves in all sorts of ways; not just because of how things sound. A lot of it depends which other languages we took the words from. We are not talking about sentence structure here.

I think he's going to start crying in a minute

But isn't sentence structure the very essence of grammar?

Me? No, I've already said both are acceptable forms of English (so you 'a historic' lovers can carry on using it). I'm challenging those who say that 'an historic' is not correct. Because it is. In British English, anyway. American English on the other hand...

Grammar is all about avoiding confusion in a sentance, and as such, anything that causes you to stop the flow, and think twice about what was said (either in your head as you read something or when someone else says it to you) is bad gramma. (I'm obviously talking about choice and order of words here, not pronounciation of individual words [although that can effect which word to choose]).

Malc

*asplodes*

Is that paragraph above meant to be ironic?

It's also said that 'an historic' etc can also be used as the stress is on the 'storic' part of the word, not at the beginning. You're hardly saying the 'hi' part of the word at all.

Even the OED thinks myp is being a stick in the mud.


(emphasis mine)

Apostrophes.
Discuss....

No actually, don't.

Let's discuss ellipses first.

Th'ere was s'omeone wh'o us'ed to pos't her'e wh'o li'ked t'hem qui'te a lo't b'ut w'ho isnt wit'h us anymor'e.

Gramatical ellipses?

I am going to buy some bread and I am going to buy some cheese. -> I am going to buys some bread and cheese.

Malc

I never said I wasn't being a stick in the mud. Its usage is still acceptable, however, and I like it.

How to use Apostrophes
1. The apostrophe (') has two functions. It indicates both the possessive case and contractions. This might seem simple, but it causes a lot of problems.

2. The Possessive Case
We can say either The whiskers of the cat , or the cat's whiskers. This is the possessive case, when something belongs to somebody or something else.

3. When the possessor is single we indicate possession by using an apostrophe followed by the letter 's':

The man's coat my sister's hat.

4. When the possessors are plural, the apostrophe is placed after the final 's':

The girls' bicycles my cousins' parents.

5. When names end with the letter 's', either use is acceptable:

James' wife or James's wife.

(It is often said that the choice between the two should be made on how the word is pronounced.)

I still get "its" and "it's" wrong sometimes.

I wish I could remember how and when to use the semi-colon. It's the punctuation mark of champions.

If the OED says that "In standard modern English the norm is for the h to be pronounced in words like hotel and historical, and therefore, the indefinite article a is used" then I disagree with your position that "an historic" is more correct. It isn't. It's allowable, but it's falling out of usage, and one day it will probably be incorrect.

If in doubt, use it; it's rare that someone will know you've used it wrongly.

I'm off to look at tits.

Doc: I never said it was 'more correct', put your glasses on. I said they were both acceptable usage and I've discussed why from an etymological point of view that some words beginning with 'h' started with 'an'. I will continue to use it for those words as I think it looks nice. You don't have to.

'An historic' is completely wrong for American English, though, so I can see why you don't like it, what with the hideous Americanisms that creep into your posts all the time.

O RLY?

"Any word that begins with an 'h' that is derived from Latin 'should' be prefixed with 'an'."
"Saying 'a historic' and 'an historic' are both equally fine, these days."
"I like it because it's technically correct."

It's not technically correct, it's obsolete. It's not equally fine, it's obsolete. And I disagree with "should", despite your weaselly use of scare-quotes.