"1984" and "Animal Farm" deleted from the Kindle

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Some grist for the DRM-is-evil mill.

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/ ... an-others/

Quote:

This morning, hundreds of Amazon Kindle owners awoke to discover that books by a certain famous author had mysteriously disappeared from their e-book readers. These were books that they had bought and paid for—thought they owned.

But no, apparently the publisher changed its mind about offering an electronic edition, and apparently Amazon, whose business lives and dies by publisher happiness, caved. It electronically deleted all books by this author from people’s Kindles and credited their accounts for the price.

This is ugly for all kinds of reasons. Amazon says that this sort of thing is “rare,” but that it can happen at all is unsettling; we’ve been taught to believe that e-books are, you know, just like books, only better. Already, we’ve learned that they’re not really like books, in that once we’re finished reading them, we can’t resell or even donate them. But now we learn that all sales may not even be final.

As one of my readers noted, it’s like Barnes & Noble sneaking into our homes in the middle of the night, taking some books that we’ve been reading off our nightstands, and leaving us a check on the coffee table.

You want to know the best part? The juicy, plump, dripping irony?

The author who was the victim of this Big Brotherish plot was none other than George Orwell. And the books were “1984” and “Animal Farm.”

Scary.

Malc · **Posted:** Fri Jul 17, 2009 20:41

WTF?

Malc

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

Wow. That's quite frankly astonishing. Strangely similar to that case in the US where parents at a school were campaigning to get a book banned from the library because it had naughty words in. It was Fahrenheit 451. Irony means nothing to these people.

I'm quite pleased that my Sony has no technical ability to revoke the books you download.

sdg · **Posted:** Fri Jul 17, 2009 20:47

That's outrageous! I love books and have never considered buying them in digital form but now I certainly never will.

devilman · **Posted:** Fri Jul 17, 2009 20:50

It wouldn't be quite so bad if they'd just been pulled from sale but to delete them from customers who'd already bought them is ridiculous. What if you'd neared the end of one of the books? I'd have thought Kindle owners have them because they don't want to have the physical book.

GovernmentYard · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5318

That's not grist for the mill, that's proof!

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

It's proof Amazon's DRM is pretty sucky. It's proof that you need to read, and understand, the T&Cs of DRM purchases clearly and properly.

iTunes, on the other hand, had pretty non-sucky DRM. Steam is arguably better than shit like Securom. I think it's too complex an area for sweeping statements.

Malc · **Posted:** Fri Jul 17, 2009 20:58

From what I read, the people who published it, didn't actually have the right to publish it.

Malc

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Interesting. It was essentially, then, stolen goods. And there is plenty of precedent with physical stolen goods being taken from some sucker who bought them in good faith.

That thread notes other people who have bought books that can no longer be bought and not had them deleted.

GovernmentYard · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5318

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

I think it's too complex an area for sweeping statements.

But I'm good at them!

ApplePieOfDestiny · **Joined:** 17th Dec, 2008 **Posts:** 8293

Surely they must be out of copyright now anyway? Was sure it was 50 years for print.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

Life of the author plus 70 years in the US and EU, apparently:

#whatpd">http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/ok ... tml#whatpd

So 2020 for Orwell's stuff.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

That's the crux. This publisher put them up for purchase in a jurisdiction in which they were copyright free, but made them available world-wide, which means at least some of money the publisher received was illegally gained.

LewieP · **Joined:** 29th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 7600

Dimrill · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:40

Excellently, the CEO of Amazon himself has apologised for this.

Quote:

This is an apology for the way we previously handled illegally sold copies of 1984 and other novels on Kindle. Our "solution" to the problem was stupid, thoughtless, and painfully out of line with our principles. It is wholly self-inflicted, and we deserve the criticism we've received. We will use the scar tissue from this painful mistake to help make better decisions going forward, ones that match our mission.

With deep apology to our customers,

Jeff Bezos
Founder & CEO
Amazon.com

myp · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:41

Refreshingly frank, I thought.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

myp wrote:

Refreshingly frank, I thought.

And he didn't make a big deal about the (quite important, I feel) mitigating circumstances. Very commendable.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:44

What else could they do, though?

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:45

Was it the Eel scene that caused it to be deleted?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Grim... wrote:

What else could they do, though?

Tighten up the self-service portal to stop publishers selling stuff they don't own would be a good start.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:48

I believe that would be a case of the old saying: "locking the door once myp is already in your house".

myp · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:49

Or educating the wife on AV cables after the installation engineer has driven off.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:52

Or asking for advice once the laptop was in bits.

Fucking wife. Fucking engineer.

But anyway - they did have to remove the books.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:53

Grim... wrote:

Or asking for advice once the laptop was in bits.

I've been zung. :'(

Yes, agreed, they had to remove the books. What about a notice period saying 'due to illegally distributing these, we have to remove them and will do so before X date'?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

myp wrote:

Yes, agreed, they had to remove the books. What about a notice period saying 'due to illegally distributing these, we have to remove them and will do so before X date'?

Fuck yeah. Yanking it without telling anyone in advance was a stupid move and a half. Panic reaction, I expect.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

Grim... wrote:

But anyway - they did have to remove the books.

Only because they put a mechanism in place in the first place to allow them to remotely delete content. If they hadn't put that there, they could have just sent an email saying "could you delete this, please?"

Dr Lave · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5979

That apology is great. And I mean that sincerely.

But they are apologising for their use of their abilities, not the abilities themselves.

There is a long running thing on Boing Boing where Cory (as a proper author remember) is trying to find out the answer to three questions

Quote:

1. Is there anything in the Kindle EULA that prohibits moving your purchased DRM-free Kindle files to a competing device?

2. Is there anything in the Kindle file-format (such as a patent or trade-secret) that would make it illegal to produce a Kindle format-reader or converter for a competing device?

3. What flags are in the DRM-free Kindle format, and can a DRM-free Kindle file have its features revoked after you purchase it?

Which I think it is fair to know.

They've also cut of the text to speech feature (screw you blindos) at the request of the publishing industry.

The hidden nature of the device (e.g. some books have undocumented download limits before you have to buy it again) just makes the idea of buying it ridiculous.

If they can delete stuff off your kindle without your permission can they alter books? Could they change some facts in my history text? If this is the future shit like this really matters.

All they doing is pushing geek early adopters towards the inevitable third party open readers that will read any pdf and so on. And to piracy. Is every industry going to go through this same shit each time?

GazChap · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 14:09

myp wrote:

What about a notice period saying 'due to illegally distributing these, we have to remove them and will do so before X date'?

Could be they asked the people that owned the copyright on the books whether this would be acceptable, and they said "no, remove them now."

But yeah, had they not put the remote-delete ability in in the first place, none of this would have happened.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

The iPhone might have remote revocation, say the hackers. They found some stuff in an early ROM. It's never been used though, or confirmed to exist by Apple (and the hackers could have been wrong, the evidence wasn't clear cut).

I'm trying to think what other formats this could happen on.

The Xbox can remotely kill downloads, can't it?

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 14:13

All modern consoles can, I'd imagine.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 14:15

Can the 360 suck back any files though? I suppose it could ban you from playing certain games online.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

myp wrote:

Can the 360 suck back any files though? I suppose it could ban you from playing certain games online.

It could permanently remove your licence. Right now there's a 360 in Game with all my DRM licenced to it, but when I get around to doing the transfer tool thing, the next time it's online, it'll lose access to all that content permanently, even if it's taken back offline.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 14:22

Individual games, though? Say they decide that Bomberman sounds a bit like 'Bummerman' and remove it from the marketplace. Can they stop me playing it as I've already downloaded it?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

myp wrote:

Individual games, though? Say they decide that Bomberman sounds a bit like 'Bummerman' and remove it from the marketplace. Can they stop me playing it as I've already downloaded it?

Yes, by exactly the same process. I have no idea whether their Live T&Cs allow them to do this legally, and your statutory rights would entitle you to a full refund (I think), but they certainly have the same capability as Amazon do.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Jul 24, 2009 14:29

I'd be very surprised if they couldn't.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32624

Well, you have to hand it to them, Amazon have made this right:

Quote:

Hello,

On July 23, 2009, Jeff Bezos, our Founder and CEO, made the following apology to our customers:

“This is an apology for the way we previously handled illegally sold copies of 1984 and other novels on Kindle. Our “solution” to the problem was stupid, thoughtless, and painfully out of line with our principles. It is wholly self-inflicted, and we deserve the criticism we’ve received. We will use the scar tissue from this painful mistake to help make better decisions going forward, ones that match our mission.

With deep apology to our customers,
Jeff Bezos
Founder & CEO
Amazon.com”

As you were one of the customers impacted by the removal of [title] from your Kindle device in July of this year, we would like to offer you the option to have us re-deliver this book to your Kindle along with any annotations you made. You will not be charged for the book. If you do not wish to have us re-deliver the book to your Kindle, you can instead choose to receive an Amazon.com electronic gift certificate or check for $30.

Please email Kindle customer support at [email protected] to indicate your preference. If you prefer to receive a check, please also provide your mailing address.

We look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
The Kindle Team

JohnCoffey · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:06

myp wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Or asking for advice once the laptop was in bits.

I've been zung. :'(

Yes, agreed, they had to remove the books. What about a notice period saying 'due to illegally distributing these, we have to remove them and will do so before X date'?

I think cease and desist means right now.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

It means cease allowing downloads right now. It doesn't necessarily mean remove the copies people have already downloaded right now.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 26098

That notice from Amazon is a breath of fresh air.

JohnCoffey · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:34

Mimi wrote:

That notice from Amazon is a breath of fresh air.

That's what I thought. It's very seldom that a large wealthy business will put their hands up and admit they fucked up. I mean, look at all the times Ebay and Paypal have fucked up and fucked people over. Never ever see them apologising.

Fair play to Amazon IMO. I know two wrongs don't make a right and people are bound to complain about it, but they're just protecting themselves.

JohnCoffey · **Posted:** Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:35

Craster wrote:

It means cease allowing downloads right now. It doesn't necessarily mean remove the copies people have already downloaded right now.

Of course, but panic is bound to settle in when you realise you could be sued for millions of dollars.

As I say, two wrongs don't make a right but that's one of the most honest apologies from any corporation I have ever seen.

Be Excellent To Each Other

"1984" and "Animal Farm" deleted from the Kindle

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