Be Excellent To Each Other

Doctors want right to talk faith.

A while ago there was a story in the news of a nurse(?) who had been temporarily suspended and been given a warning after telling a patient that she would pray for them, to which the patient objected.

This story obviously hadn't made n impression on one of my nurses the other week who told me exactly the same thing as she ended her shift to go home. It didn't offend or upset me, mostly because I was very drowsy and I guess I thought that if it helped her to pray for her patients then, well, it didn't affect me. That said I am very much against it, because although at that moment it didn't bother me, in other circumstances it probably would have made me feel at least a bit uncomfortable, and it would almost certainly make some others feel very uncomfortable.

When my grandad had to be taken into care I noticed that a little straw cross has appeared attached to his wall soon after he moved in. My grandad was not a religious man, and I asked who had given it to him. He said he didn't know, he came in one day and it was stuck to the wall. I asked if he wanted it, he said no, so I took it down, slipped it into my handbag so it wasn't just laying in the bin, and thought no more of it. The next time I went to see him, there was another in its place. I surreptitiously glanced into each room as I passed and ALL of the rooms had them stuck in there. Many of the residents there were Hindu, and also had these crosses stuck to the walls. I thought this rather strange - the care home was not supposed to be connected with any particular religion, yet clearly someone was pressing symbols of their faith on the residents.

I removed three crosses from my Grandad's wall and asked them if they'd stop putting them in the room because they weren't wanted. One still crept in every few months, like no-one would notice.

So, do you think that there is any room for religion in the health care profession? Do you think that doctors/nurses/carers have the right to say they'll pray on someone else's behalf, or is there a worry that any reliance on religious intervention might undermine the scientific application of knowledge and medicine?

Hmm. I read this story in the small hours of the morning having been woken up by what seemed to be a war between geese and crows* directly outside my window.
Personally I don't think religion has any place whatever in health care. Certainly I can't imagine what my response to a nurse offering to pray for me would be. Though I suspect it would be somewhere along the lines of, "That's fine. But if you're going to try that, can you also leave the window slightly open in case Superman decides to fly in and save me?"
Of course, if one happens to believe and praying offers some sort of relief that's perhaps another story. But crosses appearing where they're not wanted?

No.


* Geese won.

a) what harm does it actually do the patients.
b) what good does it do the doctors.

I can answer b. For many, it makes what can be an unpleasant job considerably more bearable, and so allow them to do a better job. The most common occupation at my church was medical. second was educational.

Heh, maybe she had heard your response before, MarcusJ, because they would not allow the windows open in the hospital room (and I was in a single room, not on a ward with other people) even though it was stifling and stuffy to me some days.

I think I would have been more irked by it, but I had not that long come around, I was dosed up to the top of my eyeballs, and if someone had said that they had heard that the scent of a giraffe could aid healing so they'd just sent for one to spend the night in my room, I probably would have just smiled in assent and gone to sleep.

I would argue that some patients (myself) would wonder if the doctor's/nurse's belief that prayer could heal patients might compromise the belief in what is actually going to help that patient recover.

I would argue that the factors that make up a recovery would be:

100% care, medicine and science / 0% the religious beliefs and prayers of the attending health care professionals.

If I was approached by someone in the street telling me that they were going to pray for me, it would be unwelcome. The fact that it is a healthcare professional who is in charge of caring for me when I am unwell offering to do the praying does not make it any more welcome, in fact it is less so, because I want all their faith in the fact that they want for me to get better to lie in the power of scientific advancement and development of modern medicine, not what amounts (to an atheist) as little more than a fairytale.

@MrDave If your doctor told you, as a Christian, that he was going to go home and ask the Easter Bunny to make you well again, would that diminish your trust in your doctor's approach? I'm really not trying to be nasty with that comparison, but to an atheist I can't see a whole lot of distinction.

A nurse praying with a patient who asked for it doesn't bother me too much. A nurse mentioning prayer unprovoked bothers me a great deal; as far as I'm concerned it greatly undermines their profession and I would more than likely ask that that nurse not have any part in my recovery. I feel very strongly about religion, and there is no place for it in a hospital with a patient who has not asked for it specifically.

I don't really have a problem with doctors discussing spiritual issues with patients if that's what the patient wants. If a doctor/nurse follows a different religion to that of the patient then best to leave it out altogether.

Personally, if I was in a ward with little straw crosses on the walls, it'd be tempting to turn them upside down when no-one was looking and deny all knowledge.

So, do you think it is OK to discuss spiritual matters if the patient initiates it, but it's not really acceptable for a nurse/doctor to say they'll pray for the patient otherwise. From the point of a patient, I'd agree with that, though if I were a nurse I think I'd find it difficult knowing what to say if a patient asked me to pray for them. I suppose you could refer them to a colleague, or a visiting minister, etc (if hospitals still have them, I saw no mention of it when I was last in), because bedside manner would probably prevent you from just saying 'sorry, but I'm going to put my faith in science!'

It would be a different story if little straw pentagrams where stuck on walls.

Just saying like.

Well I'm for it if I can maintain my right to smack them in their stupid faces if they start talking about faith to me.

Personally, I don't see the problem. Obviously, I'd be annoyed if someone had repeatedly snuck religious effigies into my room or intrusively insisted on blathering on about God, but although I'm a total atheist, I've never once been offended by a religious person's saying they'll pray for me. I can appreciate that, under certain circumstances, it can come across as immensely patronising, but no matter how misplaced or misguided their beliefs may be, surely you folks can appreciate that it's still a very warm and well-intentioned gesture? If a nurse said this to me just as s/he (or I) was leaving, I'd thank 'em and leave it at that...

This reminds me of the Lips' "In A Priest Driven Ambulance".

Well the straw crosses are creepy enough. Bit voodoo / Blair Witch innit?

Also what if you were a vampire. Where's the duty of care?

What, then, if you are of one particular religion that states that people worshipping other religious figureheads was an abomination, and you truly believed this to be the case, and it was someone of that religion stating that they were going to pray to their God for you.

In my grandfather's case they clearly did not care whether he was Christian or not, but they would have known that many of the woman in the home were Hindu by the religious symbols they wore on their very faces, yet still elected to push their idea of religion onto them.

I just don't think that religion has a part to play in the healthcare profession unless it is requested. As I said earlier, if it was someone telling me they'd pray for me in the street I wouldn't appreciate it, but from a healthcare professional it seems, well, unprofessional.

Also, if you did turn around and say that you didn't appreciate the assumption that you'd want to be prayed for because you were atheist, would that then affect the standard of care that you received from that nurse/doctor? If their feelings were hurt by the exchange then the patient/carer relationship may be damaged and the level of care might be affected.

I just think it is a needless assumption, and if it does make even some people feel uncomfortable, then I don't think it is a good idea.

Actually, I'll pop a poll in the first post to this effect, I wonder how many people would feel uncomfortable about being told that someone was going to pray for them that night.

GTFO
/

Poll added to first post

That's true, Mimi; I completely forgot that they'd likely be saying this to people of other faiths, too. I suppose it is bloody unhelpful, but again, I think it depends entirely on how insistent both parties are being. It's equally as unreasonable to be annoyed at someone for even mentioning something that's at the centre of their life as it is for them to foist it upon you.

I don't think I have any sympathy for anybody who is enraged by this because their holy book tells them that worshipping any other god is an abomination, though. They can fuck away off!

If someone just said in passing that they would 'pray for me' I would take it as just a figure of speech, in the same way that I would say that someone was in my thoughts when they suffer a tragedy. Going round putting crosses on bed or sacrificing lambs on the hill at sunrise would, however, not be appropriate.

But aaah - isn't it basically the same god but with different branding and franchise operators? So you know, the message might still get through but you'd have to put up with an advertising supported service or roaming charges.

Unless you're talking Ganesh and that lot. Or Odin and pals. Or the Old Ones. OK, my theory falls down a little.

That's kind of what I'm getting at, mate. How hard is it to just nod politely and move on, if all they've done is say that they'll pray to their version for you? "Fuck you! There is only one true god, and you will be judged by him and burn for your heresy!" would be a bit of an overreaction.

I think it is slightly more than that as it isn't so much that they are mentioning their beliefs as directly involving you, the patient in their beliefs by making you a part of their worship/practices. Someone saying that they are a churchgoer does not offend me in the slightest, that would be stupid, but when they either a) try to tell me that I should also attend or b) (as in this case) assume so much as to make me and my illness a part of their rituals, it just feels like a massive and unappreciated assumption is being made and if you bring up that you are dissatisfied with this it may affect your future standard of care from that person.

That's obviously just my feelings on it, but if there are a proportion of people that would be made to feel uncomfortable by this then surely it is best that the assumption of religion is a bad thing.

If someone offered to sacrifice a lamb for me I'd feel a mixture of fearful & happy. I mean they'd either genuinely want you to get better or they're just a lamb hating psychopath.

Surely doctors & nurses can figure out whether or not to mention prayer by reading your admission notes (if they don't mention religion in the notes then maybe they should).

But they aren't, really - they're doing it for me. I don't have to kneel with them at their bedside, and I suppose that's why it doesn't bother me. I'm totally with you on anything more intrusive than saying "I'll pray for you" or "God bless you", though, and I would certainly hope that expressing non-belief will never affect the quality of anybody's care.

I also wonder how the Christian nurse stating she would pray for her patients would feel if, when coming around from her operation anther nurse said that she was now going home to appeal to Ganesh, Vishnu and Hanuman for her? Would it make the nurse feel uncomfortable in return?

My first thoughts:

1) Why do you need to let the patient know that you praying for them? God is either listing or he isn't, and so I don't see why it needs to be mentioned unless it is a form of promoting your faith. "I'll be thinking of you" and "my thoughts are with you" are perfectly fine alternatives. I'm confused to why someone needs to specify that there concern is religious in nature.

2) Whilst the NHS still directly funds priests and chaplains as part of it services then I think the religious elements of that persons care should be left to them. I think ill people should have ample access to pracitioners of their faith and the NHS should do everything it can to provide that access (I do think the cost of NHS chaplains etc should be met by the faiths rather than the tax payer however, but thats a different story), and whilst that is provided I think the benefit of doctors and nurses speaking about their faith to their patients who have the same faith is out weighed by the damage it can do to those of other (or no) faith.

3) In addition I think the blurring of the lines between evidence based medicine and religion is a rocky road to head down (for both topics).

4) Personally, If I was really ill I don't want to be dealing with not offending whoever was offering my their faith. I would find that stressful and uncomfortable. I can see how some people would also prefer it.

4) The cynic in me suspects the people 'pro' this 'right' for doctors would be outraged if an islamic doctor did exactly the same kind of psuedo promotion of their faith.

I guess I feel differently as I'd see it as that I was the subject of their ritual, and as such I would feel involved.

If she were going home to cast magical powders on my image, or sticking pins in my effegy, I'd feel involved in the ritual in exactly the same way.

I know that these nurses are well meaning, but as long as there are people that are made uncomfortable by it, and poll results so far suggest that there are some, surely it is for the best for the nurse not to assume?

PS @Lave, glad to see you here - your year of Mondaily updates is so far failing terribly

Possibly, but I'd like to think that in most cases it wouldn't. I thought most modern faithful folks in Britain liked to think of themselves as being tolerant of and friendly towards other faiths - being offended by a Hindu's or Muslim's prayers extending to yourself or other Christians isn't very conducive to living and letting live...

But yeah, it's certainly best that no assumptions should be made.



Aiiieee! Ok, you've convinced me. *whimper*

Also, I think that once doctors can talk about their faith, then it wouldn't be difficult for them to start demanding the right to treat according to their faith. There is a very small, but quite vocal contingent of doctors (I believe) who want to have the right to refuse treatment, or alter treatment based on things like religion and sexuality.

Obviously thats mental, and wouldn't be allowed but once you've the goal posts you would be fielding that question a lot more often.

NHS is the tip of the iceberg though. Vulnerable people can be in hospital, a homelessness project or even in their own home with a social or support worker. I've seen recovering addicts doing very well, only to be scared out of recovery by pressure from fundies to take a Christian option over a secular one, I cannot go into any detail at all but I recall one individual whose passing was not helped by those who would sooner pray over them than seek appropriate interventions in a crisis.

There is too much at stake to allow members of any cult, no matter how mainstream, to impose their obsessions on the weak.

Flipside -the 12-step is something I abhor in principle, yet people I value highly are alive today because of it. Better religious than dead. The caveat here is that the 12-step is not forced upon anyone. In my line I've got some very devout colleagues who are to some extent motivated to do their jobs by their faith. They'd never reveal it or proselytise to a client, which is how it should be. My (small 'p') pagan rationalisation of the world doesn't come into my voluntary sector work any more than it did when I worked in a betting shop or a bank.

If we are going to allow this in our hospitals Narconon might as well be funded by the public purse as well. What's good for the goose...


...and finally yes, many churches, mostly the more fruity ones, will tend to have professionals from the health sector and so on. Moneyed people, in the main. Funny that.

It is so hard to find the time...

I think they can frankly fuck off. If I want someone to be a patronising weirdo by saying they'll talk to their imaginary friend for me, I'll go to a church. If I want medicine and patient care that will actually have an effect on my health and wellbeing, I'll go to a doctor or nurse. Pray all you want, but when your job is to provide medical care, shut your bloody yap about it at work and just do it when you get home. It'll be just as useless whether you tell the person or not, but if you tell them there's a good chance you'll just piss them off and instill in them massive doubts about your judgement.

As for those people sticking up crosses on the wall... man, that would piss me off something fierce. I too would hang it upside down the second time it appeared, just to screw with them.

Oh and I can imagine the situation where an old and sick person of faith X is very kindly offered the prayers of faith Y and freaks out.

My Mum works for a Doctors and stuff is so very often on tenderhooks that I can see the possibility of bringing religion into it to cause a lot of trouble.

It wouldn't bother me very much - I'd much rather have someone praying to their god for my recovery and well being than have someone else blowing themselves up near me after receiving instruction from their god.

What if faith X is right and faith Y is wrong and by praying on your behalf, the just doomed you for blasphemy?! There are at least half a dozen major religions and they have all, at one point, preached that the other believers are doomed, right?

Indeed, that is exactly the kind of hysterical thinking that can occur in someone who's really ill, or mentally troubled. As much as it anmnoys me to say it, I think doctors and nurses should leave the discussion of faith to those 'qualified' - namely the chaplains they employ for that very purpose.

Oh and I think I should mention that atheist doctors shouldn't be allowed to talk about how the patients 'faith isn't needed' either. Obviously.

Quite so. Atheists generally don't concern themselves with gods any more than they concern themselves with morlocks or leprechauns anyway, so the opposite happening would be less of a problem.

I will ask clients to draw a line under religious conversation after a point though, or refer them to a denominational faith centre of their choosing if that's what they need to talk about. Reason being when a clent starts saying a pop star lives in his teeth, I'm supposed to contact their mental health nurse, but not if they say there's an invisible jewish zombie who is his own dad living in the sky. Maybe it would make a difference if a couple of hundred thousand people believed a pop star was living in his teeth. No-one can explain to me what the differnce is, nor where the line is.

I dunno, Jesus displayed traits of a paranoid schizophrenic anyway, as did Mohammed - messiah complex, auditory hallucinations, command voices, etc.

Pray for me? Fuck off.

Go sacrifice a chicken on the pentagram at midnight, that's at least coooool.

He also thought everyone was out to get him, so buggered off and formed his own religion with 12 hangers on.

No. they should leave well alone, unless of course my Muslim doc is allow to say, "May Allah be with you?" constantly.

Try to imagine the coverage then.

"I'll pray for you."

You'll pray for me? What, is this hospital not very good or something?

I've used that on colleagues of a jesus persuasion before. They insist it is 'not the same' yet can't seem to provide me with an explanation why.

I suggest cognitive dissonance might be the reason it's different.

Because it isn't different, and there's no rational explanation. Still, each to their own as long as they keep it to themselves.

Though that was implicit, but yes.

I think if someone said that they would pray for me when I was in hospital, i'd probably thank them for the time, as they are at least thinking about you when you're not with them. Which is nice. There have been some studies on the effect of prayer on recovery. Here is one:




However the sample size is small. i might look for some more later. And actually read more than the abstract.

So God does listen to prayers but his subsequent invterventions are only enough to cause a slight statistical anomaly. Either it was a fluke or God is rubbish.

Or that talking to an unconscious patient about anything is going to probably help stimulate the brain a little bit.