Be Excellent To Each Other

Blimey, that is going to get confusing..

I seriously doubt any OEM is going to offer that version. They've made it available to satisfy the antitrust suit I reckon

Fucking EU bullshit.

Tell you what, let's force them to not bundle a kernal too! That'll help!

Pricks.

TBH, I understand where the EU is coming from.

However, I believe that they are coming from the year 2001.

How long until someone who sells themes for Windows moans about it coming with one for free? Then all we get is the command prompt.

You'd be lucky to get 1's and 0's m'lad. Consider yourself blessed.

To be fair, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist who repeatedly refused to co-operate. What was the EU supposed to do? Let them off?

There were version of XP and Vista that had no IE or Media Player too. You never saw them in the wild. It'll be the same here.

Of course, what definately won't happen is that your Laptop/Netbook/Desktop comes with the IE8 free OEM, and with someone at Dell/HP/etc. having conveniently included IE8 for free as one of their bundled tools. Of course not.

Well Win7 HAS to come with virtually all of IE7 because there's a LOT of Windows apps that rely on its controls being there. So really they'll have to just omit iexplore.exe.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but that article reads as though the only versions available here witll be the N and E editions. So while OEMs can install whatver browser they like, I'd imagine quite a few would choose Firefox.

It is very silly though. In terms of boxed product, I think all versions of Windows 7 are going to have the option to not install (or at least disable) WMP and IE, so entirely removing from the disc the option to install them in the first place has absolutely no consumer benefit. Presumably Apple are still fine to include Safari and Quicktime with their OS?

Apple haven't used a monoploy stranglehold on the OS market to drive browser makers out of business. That's a significant distinction. If iTunes ever became virtually the only way to obtain music, don't thnk the EU wouldn't be all over them about it.

I don't understand why people are so down on this quite important piece of consumer protection law.

Because Windows users are lazy scrubbers Doc.

Of course not, apple are lovely remember?

Basically it's forcing the consumers to go through hassle for no reason. You won't even be able to use IE to download Firefox if you want it so you'll have to find some round the houses method like a supplied MS download app (which will of course be IE anyway) to do it. And if you want IE you'd effectively be using IE to unlock IE.

Fucking stupid.

But IE has never been virtually the only way to browse the web and will be even less so when you can switch it off altogether.

Your argument makes more sense when you're talking exclusively about OEMs (where a choice of browsers is more understandable), but less so for boxed products, where the consumer is choosing to buy that particular OS, rather than having it bundled with hardware.

Technically, the European versions of Windows 7 will be inferior. In the rest of the world IE and WMP will be options. In Europe they won't be. Of course it's a minor issue really, as it's hardly going to be difficult to download IE or WMP.

Would you say the monopoly issue is a factor when it comes to boxed OSes? Surely then Windows and OS-X (which I assure you I've got nothing against!) are then competing on an even playing field? I can't see how removing IE and WMP from the boxed Windows makes any more sense than removing Safari and Quicktime from he boxed OS-X.

Actually that's a good point - will users have to install a browser from a disc (supplied seperately)?

They'll have to do it with a command prompt.

/goes off to find out how hard that would be

Not hard for the likes of you or me (or anyone on this forum, I'd wager), but the general unwashed? Hmmm.

To clarify what I'm trying to say to Doc G: I take the view Windows being a monopoly OS in the OEM market (which I think should certainly be investigated) and IE being supplied with Windows are two entirely seperate issues, the latter being much less bothersome than the former.

Well, it doesn't have wget, and using start (URL, for example http://download.mozilla.org/?product=fi ... lang=en-GB) opens your browser.
Using FTP seems like cheating, for some reason.

So what happens if you type 'www.firefox.com' into your Windows Explorer browser? I'm interested to know if it'll still work or not.

asploshun

It opens your default browser. I've never not had one before.

HMMMM.

I'm pretty sure they couldn't ship windows without any internet accessing software at all.

You know when you first fire up ie7 and it gives you a search provider choice? Could that work for browsers? Double click a generic 'internet' button, get given a choice of IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera etc?

Could do, but then you're creating another tier of privilege - browser manufacturers who can't afford to pay Microsoft to include them in this choice (presumably that's how it would work?) might feel hard done by.

You're all ignoring that what MS have actually announced*.

The US is getting 6(!) editions of Win7, all with IE8 and Media Player. The EU is getting 13(!!) editions - the same 6, the same 6 without IE, and what was the no-Media-Player N edition, but now without IE8 either.

I would actually consider the N edition, even if I then installed IE8 and Media Player myself. But I have other Internets with which to get Chrome.

All this would be much nicer if MS fixed the browser APIs and documented them as a package, rather than the usual half-hearted docs and a "we will change them on a whim" attitude.

* If what The Register says they've announced is true.

We never let facts get in the way of a good argument.

I read that as the Register getting confused (understandably); So how do they turn 6 with-IE versions into 12 without-IE versions, plus one without IE or Media Player?

Edit: No, hang on:

6 with IE8 and Media Player
6 with Media Player
6 with neither IE8 nor Media Player



Still, either way - versions with IE8 built-in will be available. I think. I can't make 18 no-IE versions.

Will Solitaire still be included?

I hope not (also: I've made my usual bunch of edits to my previous post, on the previous page)

EU Commissioners prefer battleship, so that's what you'll get, and like it.

I think the first six you mention will only be available outside Europe. That's the way the Register (and seemingly everywhere else) is reporting it. Have MS said different anywhere?

Dunno. "Will be available alongside" is a stupid thing to say if they're not, in fact, going to be available alongside.

Edit: Ohhhhhhh, I have finally managed to read it the "right way", though (and which way does in fact make "available alongside" an impossibility). Sorry everyone. Carry on.

Wait - doesn't the same logic mean they can't go round saying IE8 is an 'important update' to European users, in Windows Update?

I've got Windows XP N.

Well, I haven't. But a disc is about six feet away. I should take it for raiity value.

It's also going to cause even more piracy, since the pirated version is once again the better product than anything you can buy.

I suspect thought that if I buy an EU key I'll have absolutely no problem installing a US OEM image with it in UK English.

I agree with Bik, this is not the big deal many people are making it to be.

Almost no-one is going to buy a boxed N or E version at retail; I'd wager almost no retailer would even sell it. Probably no OEM is going to preinstall N or E version either; I don't think they did with XP or Vista. But importantly, they can; which means that Mozilla can push a deal with, say, HP to get Firefox preloaded. HP can buy the no-IE version of Windows and ship it with Firefox installed and IE removed. This is a good thing, as it gives Mozilla and Opera at least a chance to make these deals and create some revenue for the company.

I see no evidence that MS won't be able to sell the normal version as well, they are only legally required to offer N and E editions in addition to the basic one. This was the case for XP and Vista and no new legal rulings have been made since then. I think The Register article is in error.

Actually Doc, I was mistaken - go read the blog post the Reg article links to, it's much clearer (and yet is written by a laws0r - how the fuck does that happen?); they (are posturing that they) really aren't selling an IE8-inclusive edition into Europe, just "IE-less" and "IE-and-Media-Player-less". Only the rest of the world gets IE out of the box.

I still think it's not going to be a big deal; OEMs are just going to add an extra "install IE8" step to their image creation, before replication to the thousands of laptops sent to retail.

No-one buys Windows at retail, after all.

Will it be called Wndows Sven?

Hmm, OK. It's difficult not to see this as a way for Microsoft to put pressure in the EU commission. However:

Makes it sound like no-one is going to be downloading their web browser over a command line. I imagine there would be an "Install IE" bootstrap application that you simply run to put the browser on, or you feed it the Firefox installer from a thumbdrive or over a network if that is your chosen course of action.

Of course, if this has little to no impact because OEMs will just install a browser, or because the startup dialogue just contains an IE bootstrap installer, then that means the the Competition Commission will likely want to re-examine it until they find a solution that does have a material impact.

And I really can see the theme creators, text editor software writers, and backup software vendors queuing up to apply the same pressure as Opera did.

Best most respectful thing they've ever done tbh.

Mozilla FTW.

Except that this makes it HARDER for you to use Mozilla, since you'll need to get it without just booting up IE to do so. If they provide any means to do so it'll be IE behind it anyway, so they'll be removing just the .exe to make some EU bureaucrat happy. Joy.

All it does it make life harder for everyone and benefit no consumer at all.

Well, it might have a side benefit of making people pause to consider that perhaps IE isn't the only browser, try FF instead, and be spared legions of spyware, ads and other insidiousness that IE supposedly carries.

Firefox is bloated piece of crap these days, though.

Still better than IE though.

I don't know. I haven't used IE past v6.

I've never used a better browser than IE7 with IE7Pro. Unfortunately that includes IE8.

Then force them to have the initial home page of IE be

"Don't like this browser? Here's some alternatives!" and include that page as a bookmark until it's deleted.

I don't like this in the same way I don't like anything that puts me further from a usable computer on install.