Be Excellent To Each Other

Ahoy! I'm a little tired of making fuck all money and I'm coming towards the end of my academic studies. I'll have an MA (hopefully) in "Useless studies" (Creative Writing) by the end of the year. Recently, though, I've been thinking I've made a bad decision doing a degree in journalism. Hell, I'm only doing the MA because I couldn't think of anything else to do. I'm now a bit stuck because I can't really find a decent job, and anything in journalism requires further training and then a number of years earning fuck all before I even make it into a decent job.

I can't be arsed.

SO, I want the big money. I'm not a stupid chap and I know I'm capable of anything if I set my mind to it. I've been thinking about doing a Law degree. Although I've never studied Law, I can gain a degree in it over three years part time because I already have a degree. So my question is, does this sound like a good idea? I am genuinely interested in Law, always have been, and I regret not studying it at A level (I did science stuff because I was deluding myself into thinking I could be arsed to study Medicine at the age of 18 - I was really lazy and I never would've done it).

Anyway, say I get a law degree in three years, what happens after that? How long until I'm earning the big bucks? The way I see it, it'll be sooner than it would be if I were to continue with newspaper journalism, plus there's a greater chance of earning ridiculous money eventually?

This may sound like I'm just trying to get rich quick or something, but I am genuinely interested in a career in law. Just forgive me for wanting a decent wage as soon as possible as well.

Aren't you going to have to entirely self-fund the second degree?

Yep. This is something I can manage because I am working full time. The degree will be part-time on an evening, like the MA I'm currently doing.

i have a lawyer friend, and what he does sounds boring to me. he is never in court like on the television. he checks contracts all day

-e- sorry, i'm not trying to ruin your idea. law is a big big subject!

On the other hand, within a couple of years of finishing his course and getting a job one of my friends had been (internally) head-hunted out to Dubai, whereupon he smashed his leg crashing a Subaru on a desert-driving day on one of the few days he wasn't drinking heavily with his fellow lawyers.

It's sad that it's the latter activity that's the more dangerous one, out there. Apparently, they get around the religious problems by selling things like booze and pork readily (albeit from the back corners of the shop) with a massive 'sin tax' applied - repent as you shop!

i thought they were fine to eat pork as long as they didn't die with it in their body?

Mr Chris will be the guy to help here - I'm sure he'll pop up soon.

If you do have a calling towards the law, don't fight it - the laws wins.

Ah yes, Mr Chris. I'd forgotten who the resident law-man was.

*puts on lawyer hat*

Hi!

If you want to study to be a lawyer, if you didn't do a law degree but did some other form of degree, you DO NOT HAVE TO DO A NEW DEGREE. This is important, and saves you two years.

You first need to do a CPE (common professional examination) or the new fangled GDL (graduate diploma in law). Full time this takes a year. It's basically a condensed version of a law degree, taking just the 7 modules required by the Law society for you to become a solicitor. (see here: http://www.lawcareers.net/Courses/CPEGDL.aspx)

HOWEVER - this is a very very hard course, and requires a fair bit of dedication - you're basically doing almost two years' worth of work in 9 months. On a law degree you do 4 modules per year, by comparison.

You can do this part time, which I believe will be two to three years.

The average fee is about 4-5k for the course, whether full or part time I think.

After that, you have to "go to law school", which is the grand name given by twatty lawyers for doing the Legal Practice Course. This is the vocational study requirement for becoming a solicitor (the barristers have their own thing called the Bar Vocational Course, which they stress is very different and much harder. Obviously. It's all that learning to wear a poncy wig. Very very hard, dontcha know). It's a one year course full time and two years part time.

I should point out that the LPC is an utter, utter piece of piss. I cannot stress enough how easy it is. If you're a moderately bright bloke I can pretty much guarantee that you will pass as long as you turn up. Solicitors regularly bemoan how pointless this makes it, but there we are.

Course fees for a full time LPC are in the region of 8k, and part time is pretty similar, I believe. If you get a training contract sorted out prior to starting, firms will pay this for you (and may also give you some money towards your cost of living for the year, perhaps 2K). If you don't get the training contract sorted out before attending, you can get a professional loan to cover it (I got one from HSBC at a very good rate), and firms will pay it off for you once you do get a training contract.

I would point out though that it is very competitive getting a training contract, particularly in London. So make sure you've got a good CV lined up, and I'd warn you that if you have less than a 2:1 at degree level then you'll find it exceptionally hard to get a training contract at a decent sized firm. Not such a handicap at high street type firms, but we'll get onto that in a moment.

Training contracts are two years long, and the good money is only in London for trainees. Outside, you may be looking at earning a fairly average wage for the first year (as low as 17k in some places), and a bit more in the second year. After that, of course, it goes up quite a bit. This website has some info on trainee salaries - http://www.rollonfriday.co.uk

If you want to earn a decent rate either as a trainee or when qualified, you'll need to avoid high street firms (the ones that do conveyancing and wills and work for small local businesses) and go for a bigger top 500 firm. These will generally be based in London, Birmingham, Bristol, Leeds, Manchester and a few other big cities. As a trainee the high street places will pay the bare minimum (the law society sets a minimum trainee salary, which is currently £15,332 outside London and £17,110 in London), and not much more afterwards.

The bigger firms will do you some decent money - almost anyone in the UK Legal 500 will pay you at least 30k in your first year as a qualified solicitor (and considerably more in London - 40 to 55 as an NQ was common in London when I was one almost 4 years ago), and it can go up between 5 to 10k per year after that, if you're good.

So - in summary. If you start this September on a full time CPE, you could be earning decent money by September 2010 as a trainee in London, and outside London fairly decent. Whether in or out of London big money kicks in two years later when you qualify, so you're looking at September 2012.

If you're doing it all part time, it will be at least four years before you're on a training contract, and then two years before you're qualified, and by then it's 2014 and the oil and food will have run out and we'll all be dead.

Out of interest, how long after starting the training would you be able to shout your first "Objection!" in court? I'm guessing that's the barrister route, rather than the LPC.

you can do it tomorrow if you sit in the audience. "objection, judy!"

Solicitors can go to court, too. Most don't, though. Generally it's just the litigation departments, and then only a few of the people in those. It takes a certain sort of person, and is a lot less fun than the fillums make it look.

As a trainee in my litigation seat I'd been up in front of a Master at the Royal Courts of Justice on a minor procedural hearing. Was fucking dull, mind.

Cripes! Thanks for the info Chris. And the not having to do a degree bit is particularly interesting. However, where can I do this CPE/GDL? The part-time three year degree I was thinking of doing seemed just the ticket because it doesn't look too intense, it's local (at my current uni), and it's entirely possible that they'll give me some sort of grant (they did for my MA). Plus, I have a job here which will help. If I were to do this "intensive" CPE, I'd probably have to move away and get some sort of weekend job again to scrape by, which is a bit shit. If I took the slower route, I'd be living comfortably, I'd see my girlfriend etc. HMMMMM.

Pas de problem, matey.

This here is a list of the institutions that do the CPE. You'll need to go to the individual unis' websites to check on the part-time info.

Hmmm, interested in the Northumbria one.

But let's say, I get the degree in Law over three years - then what? LPC?

Would it be possible to get a Career Development Loan for something like this? I know you'd have to pay it back eventually, but only once the course was finished.

Yep. Most places that do CPEs will do LPCs too.

Thanks Chris. Really appreciate the advice, but I'm swaying towards the three year part-time degree. It would be ace to get it all done in a year, but I don't think I could afford it.

Well, that shouldn't be a problem. There are quite a few "mature" trainees around, and firms seem to like the non-law experience that older applicants have had beforehand.

<takes notes>

Coo. Top info thanks Mr Chris.

This is all interesting stuff, yes.

Having treated my 20s as an extended adolescence, I'm fast approaching 30 with still no idea of what I want to do when I "grow up", and it's only just starting to hit me. I have an English degree but, with no desire to become an English teacher, I can't think of any way in which it's going to help me other than as access onto a more career-orientated course. I've been working for the same company for 7 years now in a soul-sapping, tedious job and I don't want to do it any more. But I don't know what I do want to do.

This thread has persuaded me that it's time to have a good hard think about what I want to do with my life (something that I'm about a decade behind on) and to have a look what part-time courses local unis are offering. So cheers for the inspiration, Jonarob.

Welcome.

I must now get my contract shizzle on and do some work.

The way I see it, and you're in a similar situation, is this. I'm in a job at the moment, and I'm not going to lose anything if I take this on part-time. What else would I do with my free time anyway? It's worth a shot, and it could be a great career move in the end. The only problem is paying for it, but again, what else would I spend the money on?

obFTFY.

How do I become one of them men who draws the baddies in court for the news. Would you fancy job sharing with me on this Dimrill?

I'm stuck, so have stopped with that for now. Plus - BUSY BUSY BUSY. Without me the nuclear industry would collapse instantly. BOOM. So - no playing games today.

Only if we can sell breakfasts at the same time. In Wem.

Can I just ask, Chris – if you don’t mind – how old were you when you got fully qualified? I’m 22 now, is that old? Assuming I’ll be 26/27 by the time I’m all qualified, natch.

Chris is WELL old.

Explain further, I am interested.

BOOM!

I is 29, and qualified at, erm.. *mental arithmetic* 25.



I could, but then I'd have to kill you. Suffice to say I exaggerate a bit, but I'm working on lots of nuclear-industry-related happenings that are super secret.

Are you loaded, Chris? Without prying too much, could you reasonably afford and run a Ferrari?

*cryptically reveals the entire motive behind this thread*

He will be able to after he holds the world to ransom, threatening them with flaming nuclear death unless they pay him one trillion dollars.

Er, if I didn't have a massive mortgage and, as of next month, two kids, yes I could. They're not actually that spenny if you get them on credit, or just get a second mortgage to pay for them.

EDIT - er, and what Squirt said, obviously.

PAY UP NOW.

One meeeeeelion dollars etc.

Hmm, cool. I used to work for British Energy (dunno if you saw the thread where I talked about that).

Bah! Boring answer. I'll just assume you're loaded and pursue a legal career anyway.

I missed that. They've had an, erm, interesting history over the last decade or so, haven't they?

One more startlingly neglected question. Is your job fun, Chris? Do you want to get up on a morning and go, or would you rather stay in bed, get up at 2, grab a pot noodle and have a wank?

I enjoy my job, but I'd still rather do that.

Hah! Yes, they certainly have. I did a gap year there in 1996-1997, in the wake of privitisation, then went back to work through the summer breaks in 1998 and 1999. It was a turbulent time for the firm but it only got worse as time went on. Funny though, I remember telling people back then that we would see nuclear plant built in the UK within our lifetime and it looks now like I was right.

Hmm - at Barnwood, too, wasn't it?

Certainly was, just off the big roundabout on the Cheltenham side of Gloucester. Overlooking a big Sainsbury's and the C&G building.

I've had many a heated conversation with people about this. I'm a firm believer that one shouldn't expect a job to be fun. In the unlikely event that it is, it's not really work and they'll pay you less. Realistically, if you're expecting to get your meaning for life, your happiness and yout self-worth from your job, you're onto a loser whatever you do, let alone if it's law.

But to answer you - some days yes, some days no. Like most jobs it can become routine (I know people in the forces (who aren't on deployment, obviously) who feel the same way, even though they're flying Tornado ADVs), and you can get a little bored. But then something new happens and it's more interesting for a while.

However, whether you find law to be fun or interesting will also depend on what area you work in. Here's a few:

(1) High street private client stuff can be quite exciting, if only because you get so many nut jobs come in off the street wanting you to, say, help evict their gay neighbours.

(2) Commerical law (wot I do) has its ups and downs - one commercial contract can become much like another, but you get to learn about the intricacies of many different industries (from dairy co-operatives to the nuclear industry via companies that make wheelchairs), and the cerebral exercise of drafting from scratch a contract for an esoteric subject is quite excellent.

(3) Litigation is quite exciting, and involves lots of researching case lawand going on about "ooh, I've found the precedent from 1895 that means our client will win!" sort of stuff, and writing dead polite but incredibly snotty argumentative letters to the lawyers on the other side. Which is fun, but can get stressful.

(4) Property ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

(5) Criminal - badly paid, but can be quite exciting, in an "I'm in a cell at 3.30 am" kind of way. Get to meet interesting people.

(6) Corporate - this is all about buying and selling companies and businesses and flaoting on stock markets and the like. DO NOT DO THIS. It is full of wankers with the "first one to leave the office is a pansy" attitude and you'll have no life, and spend too much time in the company of investment bankers.

(7) Tax - ZZZZZZZZZZZZ. And ethically you'll be a bastard.

(8) IP/IT - bit like commercial.

(9) Media - ha.

There are a bunch of other niches too, but I won't bore you with them all. Mainly as I don't know all of them.

Me + MrC are both Gloucester boys - we know it well. We used to have to run to that Sainsburys during school cross-country training. Both my parents used to work at the Barclays offices on that site, too.

My. I really don't agree with this much. Well, the bit about expecting your job to define your life being folly -- I agree with that. That's really bad for you and tons of studies have shown that if you are generally miserable with everything changing your job won't help. But as for not expecting a job to be fun -- I fucking loved my job before the company murdered it under me, and I fully expect to love my new one.

I am, however, insanely lucky to be very good at some specialised and very hard things. This also means I am well paid for my work (and £2k pay rise in the new role, woo). I accept I'm unusual in that regard. But still, like most of us, my job consumes more of my working life than any other single activity; I really wouldn't want to do something I felt "meh" about. Again (before I look like a complete twat), I know millions of people have to flip burgers and clean toilets and I am ludicrously privileged and very well aware of how lucky I am.

Y'know, if you change this to "drafting from scratch a paper", "researching other people's papers", and "writing... to other researches" you've just summed up life as a scientific researcher. Never really considered it but that is a remarkably similar activity. Depending on the field some work is different of course; an industrial chemist likely has more chance of setting stuff on fire in the average day than you do.

Is that criminal lawyer, or just criminal?

Well Richard, other people come into work as lawyers just trembling with the excitement of being a Big Important Solicitor, but I'm not hugely bothered by it. I enjoy the drafting, and find it a reasonable way to earn money, but I'm wokring from zero expectations for jobs, fun-wise, so I'm almost always onto a winner...

I have a mate who's an academic chemist lecturing in Edinburgh, and he loves what he does. Mental, really. Must be the fumes.

Right then, Chris. I've thought about it and I'm thinking of working for another year to earn some money, then going for the full time GDL/CPE somewhere. But here's the next question. Where? I was looking at Oxford, but just because they have a reputation as a good uni doesn't necessarily mean they'll be best for law. What institutions do the top companies get excited about?

Yup, it's much the same in Bahrain, if you've ever seen an american video store with the adult section of shame, it's much the same.