Be Excellent To Each Other

hi, since my daughter will be arriving soonish, i thought it might be nice to have a camcorder,
one of the ones we saw was a sony dcr sx 30
any other recommendations?

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=sony_pmw-ex1

However I expect that might be towards the top end of your budget.

I suggest rather than let the mongs on here try and help, you go here:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

Loads of reviews with proper scientific measurements of camera performance and some really helpful forums.

Get one with a hard drive - it makes a world of difference.

Isn't the Flip the New Hotness of reasonably priced, easy to use consumer camcorders?

FTFY.

I'd never go for any camera where the storage medium can't be removed from the camera easily.

As I keep on saying, tape is so so cheap and if you use decent media you can have an archival life of 15-20 years almost guaranteed. So you always have a backup of those precious moments aside from the space hungry one on your hard drive.

Now granted I can talk because the camera I lust over (linked above) is card based, but money isn't that much of a problem when it comes to storage redundancy if you are shooting on an EX1.

There are consumer cameras that are card based so at least you can swap cards in and out as required. But a hard drive built into a camera? Barge pole, wouldn't touch with.

Disclaimer: I approach these things from quite a different perspective than Joe Punter with his shit handycam, so feel free to ignore.

I see what you're saying, but which of these music playback devices is pre-eminent: audio cassette, Minidisc, portable CD, iPod?

Edit -- in terms of backup, I would far, far prefer my backup to be some digital files on my NAS and in my offsite backup strategy than have to worry about a box of tapes I should grab if the house is on fire.

I don't see what you are getting at with the iPod argument, it's not a recording device. You have no need to swap in more storage in the field.

With tape data is stored on the tape as a digital stream which can then be stored on a NAS if you wish. Note that a NAS is not a long term archival storage option, if your house burns down then the NAS is going up in smoke with it. Anyone with a proper NAS (not one of those toy ones) will have some kind of backup strategy which probably involves, er, tape.

Plug and play convenience, and a demonstration that hard drives can be physically robust enough for on-the-go devices. I own a DV camcorder and I reckon I've never actually stirred myself to jump through the hoops to get the footage onto a PC. It's too much hassle, I want to plug my recording device into a computer and be presented with files I can play with no additional steps. If that means my recording device is capped at, I dunno, a few hours; well, that's ample I think.

Negatory. I reckon the average consumer is best off buying an external hard drive, backing up to it, and taking it to the office, or using an Internet based sync solution like Dropbox. Tape is a real hassle. And if you think it's any good for long term storage, you've never thought about how hard it would be to find a working drive to read a tape from 1990 if I handed you one right now.

oi, that looks nice, and found some good reviews (quite difficult to find camcorder reviews i might add)
any first hand experience?

If a person is so physically lazy they can't be bothered to transfer footage from a DV tape then I can't help them. No sympathy from me, none at all. I have to do it every time I return from a shoot, it's easy and I frequently have more footage than the average home user will shoot in a year. When you are looking at 12+ hours of capture time needed, that's when you start to think card might be convenient. See below for a recent 2 day shoot.



In terms of computer tape formats, I wouldn't know how you would play old formats. But in terms of video tape formats, you'll have no problem at all with a tape from 1990. Or even the 1960's come to that. They'll be no problem getting a DV tape transferred in 20 years from now trust me.

And Romanista, correct me if I'm wrong but I posted a link to a whole website dedicated to professionally written video camera reviews. And guess what do they have on their front page? Right at the top "Pure Digital Flip UltraHD Camcorder Review".

Open your eyes man!

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Pure-Digital-Flip-UltraHD-Camcorder-Review-36520.htm

[edit: And looking at the spec it will only record at 30fps. That'll be fun over here in PAL-land]

Go for removeable flash memory. I can state with some authority that this is the future of camcorder technology.

You can get a decent high-definition camcorder these days for under 500 pounds. For picture quality, Canon is the best, although Sony handycams have LCD touch screens and an easy mode (complete with a big fat 'Easy' button), which make them more user-friendly for beginners.

The thing about HD camcorders is having HD is all very well but they'll have shit optics at that kind of money which rather negates the point. In any case it's all marketing spin as the consumer HD cameras can't actually resolve anything like full HD. Even my Z1 looks soft when run alongside an EX 1 (as linked above).

I have a Sony DCR-SR55 hard drive camcorder. Picture quality is OK when still, but as soon as you start moving and turning around, the picture shears quite noticeably and it looks awful.

I don't have this problem with my Sony DCR-TRV245, a Digital8 camcorder that's about 2.5 times as big and runs off tape.

Gas that sounds like a bit rate and codec issue. Panning is always tricky. My Z1 uses MPEG2 at 25 meg and very fast movement can cause pixelisation. On a consumer unit running at a lower bit rate I could see real problems emerging.

One thing to say about the HD and flash consumer cameras is that they nearly all use MPEG 4 varients and as such are difficult to edit with because the are CPU intensive and it's not a frame based codec like DV. Many of the lower end pro hd codecs are mpeg2 based as it's easier to edit with even if it still isn't frame based. Both the entry level HDV and the mid level XDCAM use mpeg2. Yet consumers are forced to use MPEG4.

Apologies for the spelling btw. I'M on iPhone today and it's driving me nuts.

And Romanista, correct me if I'm wrong but I posted a link to a whole website dedicated to professionally written video camera reviews. And guess what do they have on their front page? Right at the top "Pure Digital Flip UltraHD Camcorder Review".

Open your eyes man!

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Pure-Digital-Flip-UltraHD-Camcorder-Review-36520.htm

[/quote]

ah sorry, meant that googling for reviews bvefore posting this thread didn't help me much, did find this site in the end too (hate the commercials after every click though)

bit mixed review this, not sure yet

The commercials are a new thing and are very annoying. However popular sites do cost alot to run* and their reviews are excellent and include proper colour, resolution and low light tests

Because they do test things properly there is less bias in the review and the product gets reviewed on its technical merits. They certainly used to do a whole page of rather detailed ratings for each camera in a level of detail that would made ACE's "Predicted Interest Curve" look simplistic.

As for the mixed reviews, it's a 30fps only device that records progressive only video so its to be expected.

* As much as £2 a month!

That's not always so. Sony's latest consumer-level HD camcorders use the same lens and processor as their high-def prosumer models. The Samsung HD1000 has a massive 1in sensor that works great in low lighting. Canon's current HD range has a 24BMbps bitrate, which isn't too shabby.

Comparing these cameras to a $10,000+ professional unit clearly isn't fair. Fact is, a HD camcorder WILL look better on your LCD television than its standard-def counterpart, especially if you like vibrant colours. You're right that they're tougher to edit with though.

Plus, MiniDV is a dying format. Within a few years, you wont be able to buy the tapes, except at a few specialist stores at marked up prices. SD cards will be around for a long time to come.

The Sony models you talk about are models like the FX1 which are consumer units in name only, It's the same camera as the Z1 with different software loaded (so they can remove a load of pro features) and the XLR sockets missing. While they are consumer units in name they have nothing in common with the rest of the Sony line-up.

HD will make no difference to the colour, none. Certainly HDV is a 4:2:0 colour format just as DV is and I suspect the MPEG4 cameras are exactly the same.* What you gain is overall picture resolution over SD but frankly on the cheap cameras it's rather like having a mobile phone that claims to be 5 megapixels and then gets out performed by a 5 year old proper camera.

I've never purchased DV on the high street . Prices 4x higher than what I pay for standard DV isn't uncommon. As a format it's not going anywhere, last time I looked formats such as U-Matic (first released in 1969 and updated in the early 1980's) were still being produced by Sony and readily available at comparable prices to other formats. You may well see a reduction on the high street given time, but I can guarantee it won't be hard to get hold of.


* Except for reasons I forget DV and DVCAM in NTSC are 4:2:1 but HDV isn't.

I dunno. Manufacturers seem less inclined to support niche formats these days. I'm sure there are still plenty of active users of VHS tapes and floppy disks, for instance.

Also, in regards to my colour comment I was refering to noise levels more than anything. The clearer and less grainy an image is, the more colourful it obviously looks.

Noise levels are down to the sensor and available light. Give me an 8 year old PD150 and it'll out perform many modern cameras consumer or pro in low light (which is why it was always known as the porn directors camera of choice). In fact HD makes noise more of an issue because you need more pixels on the sensor. My Z1 starts to struggle in low light and can shoot in SD or HD. HD will make it look worse, not better!

You might say that support will drop off but you're talking about consumer formats that have been superseded. You forget that DV is directly compatible with the professional DVCAM format and is related to the newer HDV format. Production companies, colleges, TV companies all have thousands of pounds of equipment tied up in the format with companies like Sony demonstrating they are willing to support formats years after the last machine has rolled out the door. And given Sony (who are a major broadcast player) are still producing new professional cameras based on DV variant tape formats, DV is going nowhere.

The only once market dominant pro formats its now virtually impossible to get hold of are the open reel 2" Quad and 1" C formats. They've become obsolete because they were huge, had open reels and were very very expensive.

Consumer formats on the other hand fall by the wayside all the time. Hi-8, 8mm, MicroDV have all fallen by the wayside and you may struggle to get tapes. But DV is different because it crosses over into the pro arena. And while there are still machines and archives full of tapes it's not going anywhere. And until flash based camera storage becomes far cheaper, DVCAM and HDV will continue to dominate low end productions.

As if to prove a point, I've just looked up one of my suppliers to find that they have a whole page full of U-Matic tapes. Who is buying them? BetaSP pretty much killed it off in the early 90's and yet Sony still produce the tapes and officially support it on their site.

HD camcorders typically have superior sensors over their sd counterparts, so my point still stands. The average standard-def camcorder sports a 1/6in sensor, whereas high-def models have a 1/2in sensor or larger, and often come with more than one (3CCD/3CMOS).

And tape is slowly but surely on the wane in the professional market too, whether you choose to believe it or not. All the major vendors are moving towards flash or hard disk-based memory. (Panasonic has abandoned tape completely in favour of its P2 format, while Sony is pimping SxS Pro.) Even film is beginning to give ground to non-tape based digital video (see Avatar, Clover Field, some other things).

Anyway, this debate is all getting a bit nerdy and lonely (we're the only people in here!), so I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree.

With regards to consumer cameras, it depends on what models you look at. In the 200 quid mark (where this thread started) it's almost irrelevant.

Of course tape is on the wane, but to pretend that DV is going to die the kind of quick death some consumer formats have is very wide of the mark. It's simply a non-issue because there is so much DV out there. Panasonic are a terrible example as like many of Sony's rivals they have a habit of backing the wrong horse or flipping formats.

Add to this Sony are now introducing cameras that record HDV and DV formats direct to flash. So when you've finished editing, what's the cheapest way to archive your rushes and finished production? Dub it off to tape! What's the easiest way to submit it to a TV company? Again, tape.

While many TV productions are now using tapeless shooting, interestingly when it comes to shutting footage around it's still dubbed off to Digibeta because it's reliable cheap, reliable and can be sent in the post.

Did you decide on what camera to get?
MrsC has shown an interest in one, and I have not a clue about them.

well i did buy the flip in the end, liking it's one click uploading, and small size.. as said, i'm not really looing for the ultimate expensive camcorder, just a nice portable device to make some movies with my son and future daughter on, which i will actually will bring with me

+ uploading is super easy, and the video software with it is nice too (and is on the device, so if you are at a friends house it can install it automatically), or you can access it as a usb device

+ the image quality is quite good in my opinion (but chinny might think differently, i'm currently uploading a clip to youtube, so you can judge (even though it is only you tube, it is just a .mov files, so you can upload it everywhere, but youtube and myspace are suppported from the software it self (why not vimeo ;( )

- the quality when moving a lot seem a bit less

- attaches to my mini- stative (is that english, i mean a tripod to keep it stead), it a good firm way

- i can charge when i plug it directly (so no extension cable, but mine might be too cheap) into my mac, with my usb-loader that i use for my iphone it doesn't seem to work, which is rather irritating.

http://www.vimeo.com/4823830
i uploaded one here, although i myself seem to have trouble viewing it, can you see it?
(at my compu it is no problem, so not sure what vimeois doing)

The biggest problem appears to be that because the camera is so small the footage is shaky and has that mobile phone feel. I dare say that on a large screen it could induce motion sickness in no time.

yup, that's why i'm happy the tripod works well, but it is a point..

Would taping the camera to a house brick help, for that problem?

Fine, providing you don't show it a lamp.

I'm quite impressed by that, Romanisa, for the size and price of the unit. May I ask what model you went for? I had a look at the website a few days ago and there seemed to be a few different choices.

mino hd €199

Its deliciously small indeed but that might turn out to be a problem as chinny said. Still it does what i wanted

Cheers, Rick

To be honest, I just want to document a few things, not make arty movies or catch treasured footage, and I also have the World's Steadiest Hands™, I probably could have been a neurosurgeon if I wasn't a) stupid, and b) squeamish, but failing all that I also have a tripod, and price and portability are perhaps the most important things at the moment.

Tesco looked to have quite a few SD or HDD cameras in the sale. Was tempted to get one.

not really like what you tube did to this oine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj_evtsuS3k


(evne though you tube now says it is still processing)

Does that mean you're good at Super Monkey Ball then?

I am, as it happens, and that Kororinpa (sp?) game. Also, setting up domino runs