The European Parliament Election (2009) Post of Excellence

End of an Era · **Joined:** 25th Nov, 2008 **Posts:** 1041

Fellow chumps!

I invite you to discuss why we (honest Tommy's to a man and/or woman) should stay in/leave immediately the European Union.

Should we tell johnny foreigner to eff off? Should we welcome johnny foreigner with open arms? Was the man who burnt Jean of Arc at the stake wasting good matches?

Opinions required!

Dimrill · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 0:42

"Better to be on the train pissing out, than on the platform trying to piss in" - Harry Enfield.

Anonymous X · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2046

It's either be part of the EU, and work towards a proper Federal Europe (which I hope for), or end up as Airstrip One, some hideous little American satellite state. I'll take the EU any time.

sinister agent · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 7046

Anonymous X wrote:

It's either be part of the EU, and work towards a proper Federal Europe (which I hope for), or end up as Airstrip One, some hideous little American satellite state. I'll take the EU any time.

This. We can be America's quaint bitch, or a fairly influential European nation. I've got a fiver on "Chinese dependency circa 2040", just in case. Also, the EU is far from perfect, so we should remain part of it in order to have the best chance of improving it. If we leave it, we'll have no say in it.

sdg · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 6:45

sinister agent wrote:

Anonymous X wrote:

It's either be part of the EU, and work towards a proper Federal Europe (which I hope for), or end up as Airstrip One, some hideous little American satellite state. I'll take the EU any time.

This. We can be America's quaint bitch, or a fairly influential European nation. I've got a fiver on "Chinese dependency circa 2040", just in case. Also, the EU is far from perfect, so we should remain part of it in order to have the best chance of improving it. If we leave it, we'll have no say in it.

I don't have a problem with Europe. Mainly agree with what everyone else has said. I am much happier with Europe than America-if the situation were different and we were about to vote for the Anglo-American parliament and not the EU parliament,we would probably already have new laws about guns and suing people and eating mcdonalds and *insert other American cliches here*.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 7:26

I'm quite pro Europe. It's a good thing.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16639

Me too, apart from the Daily Hate bollocksy type silly stuff a lot of the most sensible laws seem to come from Europe. They certainly seem to be hampering the government's plans to fit a CCTV camera into everyone's face anyway.

devilman · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 7:58

Another pro-Europe here too. I wonder if we'll ever adopt the Euro though?

Dudley · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 8679

If nothing else though, even if you're pro staying in the EU, getting a couple of UKIP MEPs there on our side will certainly make it a lot harder for them to screw us over quite as often.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 8:31

Dudley wrote:

If nothing else though, even if you're pro staying in the EU, getting a couple of UKIP MEPs there on our side will certainly make it a lot harder for them to screw us over quite as often.

On which occasions has the EU "screwed us over"?

And on which occasions have we profited from the EU?

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 8:42

MaliA wrote:

On which occasions has the EU "screwed us over"?

CAP.

I'm wavering: there are things I like, but then I hear about great levels of corruption such as the accounts not having been approved for over a decade or MEPs signing in to get their allowance then disappearing off home.

I used to be all for a proper federation, but these days I think I'd settle for free trade as federalism seems to be inherently unstable especially if different elements have competing interests.

myp · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 8:43

Another pro-EU here. This is a boring debate.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 8:49

Anyone here read the Treaty of Lisbon? Dear god, it's almost incomprehensible.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 8:49

Kern wrote:

Anyone here read the Treaty of Lisbon? Dear god, it's almost incomprehensible.

And they renumbered a bunch of Articles, the cunts.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 8:56

MaliA wrote:

And they renumbered a bunch of Articles, the cunts.

Heh, quite.

But how can we have a sensible debate about the European Union if these matters are deliberatly obfuscated? It comes across as if it is an elite project, which the little people shouldn't worry their little heads over. The US Constitution is short and comprehensible (if deliberatly vague in places, especially regarding you-know-what). Curiously, the EU Constitutional treaty, despite being wordy, was at least an attempt to codify and clarify the position of the institutions vis-a-vis the member states.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:00

Kern wrote:

MaliA wrote:

And they renumbered a bunch of Articles, the cunts.

Heh, quite.

But how can we have a sensible debate about the European Union if these matters are deliberatly obfuscated? It comes across as if it is an elite project, which the little people shouldn't worry their little heads over. The US Constitution is short and comprehensible (if deliberatly vague in places, especially regarding you-know-what). Curiously, the EU Constitutional treaty, despite being wordy, was at least an attempt to codify and clarify the position of the institutions vis-a-vis the member states.

Actually, that's a very good point.

We should use The Da Vinci Code, or Harry Potter instead. Or, possibly, Twilight.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:02

MaliA wrote:

Harry Potter instead..

Don't get me started on the urgent need for reform of the Ministry of Magic.

Although I'd prefer Dorlores Umbridge to Jacqui Smith.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:06

Kern wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Harry Potter instead..

Don't get me started on the urgent need for reform of the Ministry of Magic.

Although I'd prefer Dorlores Umbridge to Jacqui Smith.

I'm very, very pleased that I've never read HP. Or Twilight.

Anyways, I think that most people are "Anti-Europe" is from xenophobia, gentle, or otherwise, and also, a misunderstanding of the issues involved. Given the news stories about it focus on the more ridiculous end of the spectrum, I think the overall aims are most excellent, however, it will take time for it to sort itself out and stop the MEPs using the revolving door to recharge their credit cards.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:07

Dudley wrote:

If nothing else though, even if you're pro staying in the EU, getting a couple of UKIP MEPs there on our side will certainly make it a lot harder for them to screw us over quite as often.

Nigel Farage is a dam good speaker. Along with the Tory Daniel Hannan it's refreshing to listen to politicians who actually believe in things.

Yet if people are pro-EU, why are they afraid of making a case for it? I see loads of euro-sceptic articles but very few that are pro-EU. Of course, the whole '60 years of peace' thing convieniantly forgets NATO and ,er, the Balkans...

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16639

MaliA wrote:

I'm very, very pleased that I've never read HP. Or Twilight.

I've seen the film Twilight, it's brilliant*.

* probably, if you're a 13 year old girl, actually Mali you'd really enjoy it based on your love of Take That and similar things.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:08

Another Pro Europe here, but I still want us to keep the Pound

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:11

Quote:

I understand that under EU‑Ops, the European Commission is proposing to ban the continued operation of Douglas DC3 aircraft in commercial pleasure flights. Is the Commission aware that these historic aircraft are not used in the normal commercial aviation sector, but in a very specialised sector, and will it provide me with a reasoned justification, together with details of any risk assessment performed on this aircraft type prior to the ban being announced?

Given the special nature of such aircraft, will the Commission consider a derogation to these rules, at least in order for a proper risk assessment to be carried out?

Philip Bradbourn (PPE‑DE) , dealing with the important issues, there.

Mind you, to ask that question someone must have written to im, as I don't think he's the type to lie in bed at night worrying about DC3s.

myp · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:13

Kovacs Caprios wrote:

Another Pro Europe here, but I still want us to keep the Pound

Why?

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:17

WRITTEN QUESTION by Nigel Farage (IND/DEM) to the Commission wrote:

1. How much money did the EU grant Spain for controlling ruddy ducks in Spain in 2005, 2006 and 2007?

2. How much money did the EU grant to Spain for the conservation of the white-headed duck in Spain for 2005, 2006 and 2007?

3. Have any monies been returned to the EU from these grants by the Spanish authorities?

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16639

I'm pretty sure I don't know enough about finance stuff to have any kind of reasoned opinion as to whether or not we should keep the pound, I'm sure there are good arguments for and against that don't just come down to tabloid sentiment. I'd happily let the government of the day choose, I certainly wouldn't want to see a referendum on it because as little as I know about international finance I'm pretty sure I've got at least an average level of knowledge.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:20

Kern wrote:

Anyone here read the Treaty of Lisbon? Dear god, it's almost incomprehensible.

The Lisbon Treaty is the same as the EU Constitution – with exactly the same number of new competences and exactly the same number of surrenders of veto. It is virtually identical in every regard and it is a constitutional treaty, because it gives the European Union full legal personality, and gives it the ability to amend itself in the future without having to refer to any more intergovernmental conferences.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:22

Kern wrote:

Dudley wrote:

If nothing else though, even if you're pro staying in the EU, getting a couple of UKIP MEPs there on our side will certainly make it a lot harder for them to screw us over quite as often.

Nigel Farage is a dam good speaker. Along with the Tory Daniel Hannan it's refreshing to listen to politicians who actually believe in things.

Speaking of which, I was listening to R4 at 4pm until 4-30 yesterday afternoon. and there was a most excellent program about the sue of language and stuff like that on. I'll try and and out what it was called.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:24

Nigel Farage (IND/DEM ) wrote:

Mr President, the minutes of the last part-session mention your speech in which you talked about incidents that took place in Strasbourg in December. Since that time, under Rule 147 of our revered Rules of Procedure, you have called before you 13 Members of this Parliament to face disciplinary action.

It seems to me that this has been done on a pretty arbitrary basis. I doubt whether one of those that you have called – Ms Sinnott from our group – has ever shouted at anybody in her life. Another of the Members that you called to appear in the headmaster’s study – an Austrian Member – was actually in Frankfurt on the day, so he must have one hell of a voice, must he not?

Why only 13? There were about 80 of us involved in these so-called disturbances. In fact, at the Conference of Presidents’ meeting, you yourself named me as being one of the causes of the trouble, so why am I not being punished? I am Spartacus!

(Cries of ‘I am Spartacus!’ from members of the IND/DEM Group)

Fair play to that.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:47

myp wrote:

Kovacs Caprios wrote:

Another Pro Europe here, but I still want us to keep the Pound

Why?

I donlt like the idea of our curencty being controlled elsewhere, it mught seem daft but I like the Pound.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 9:56

MaliA wrote:

The Lisbon Treaty is the same as the EU Constitution – with exactly the same number of new competences and exactly the same number of surrenders of veto. It

But Mr Brown told us it was completly different so we didn't need to have a referendum on it. And he looked so honest too.

And yes, I do want a referendum. Firstly, it would settle the question about the EU for another thirty or so years, and would save a lot of time. Secondly, I don't think major constitutional changes should be attempted without the consent of the public, either through an election held on that topic (I do support parliamentary democracy) or through a referendum.

There is a sense of disconnect bewteen the public and the politicial elites about the EU. A referendum would try to redress that balance.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

sinister agent wrote:

Anonymous X wrote:

It's either be part of the EU, and work towards a proper Federal Europe (which I hope for), or end up as Airstrip One, some hideous little American satellite state. I'll take the EU any time.

This. We can be America's quaint bitch, or a fairly influential European nation. I've got a fiver on "Chinese dependency circa 2040", just in case. Also, the EU is far from perfect, so we should remain part of it in order to have the best chance of improving it. If we leave it, we'll have no say in it.

I have nothing to add. Other than that we need to make far more effort with Europe.

markg · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 16639

Mr Chris wrote:

I have nothing to add. Other than that we need to make far more effort with Europe.

Well they never phone me so I'm fucked if I'm ever going to phone them.

The Rev Owen · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:20

I'd quite like us to become a state within the USA, to be honest. Would probably make my life a lot easier.

myp · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:20

Kovacs Caprios wrote:

it mught seem daft but I like the Pound.

Why do you like the Pound?

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:22

Kern wrote:

MaliA wrote:

The Lisbon Treaty is the same as the EU Constitution – with exactly the same number of new competences and exactly the same number of surrenders of veto. It

But Mr Brown told us it was completly different so we didn't need to have a referendum on it. And he looked so honest too.

And yes, I do want a referendum. Firstly, it would settle the question about the EU for another thirty or so years, and would save a lot of time. Secondly, I don't think major constitutional changes should be attempted without the consent of the public, either through an election held on that topic (I do support parliamentary democracy) or through a referendum.

There is a sense of disconnect bewteen the public and the politicial elites about the EU. A referendum would try to redress that balance.

i was quoting UKIP

Kern · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:29

The Rev Owen wrote:

I'd quite like us to become a state within the USA, to be honest. Would probably make my life a lot easier.

I have my concerns over the 3rd Amendment. And I'm not quite sure how the Union would guarantee us a 'republican form of government'. On the other hand, we would be one of the larger states in the congress and electroal college.

RuySan · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 3542

I'm quite surprised. I thought the vast majority of the British were against the EU.

Well, as for my i'm all for the EU. In fact they could rule my country as much as they want, as i have more trust in any foreign politicians than ours.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:32

RuySan wrote:

I'm quite surprised. I thought the vast majority of the British were against the EU.

Well, as for my i'm all for the EU. In fact they could rule my country as much as they want, as i have more trust in any foreign politicians than ours.

Portugal is practically the third world though, isn't it?

Dimrill · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:32

I don't have a country. My parents just happened to fuck here.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Kern wrote:

And yes, I do want a referendum. Firstly, it would settle the question about the EU for another thirty or so years, and would save a lot of time.

There is a sense of disconnect bewteen the public and the politicial elites about the EU. A referendum would try to redress that balance.

Do you think there's a chance of having a sensible debate about it though? Given the way the media is slanted against the EU I can't see the majority of the electorate going to the polls on such a referendum with the full, objective facts.

RuySan · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 3542

MaliA wrote:

RuySan wrote:

I'm quite surprised. I thought the vast majority of the British were against the EU.

Well, as for my i'm all for the EU. In fact they could rule my country as much as they want, as i have more trust in any foreign politicians than ours.

Portugal is practically the third world though, isn't it?

No, its more 2nd and 1/3rd world. Bitch.

RuySan · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 3542

Dimrill wrote:

I don't have a country. My parents just happened to fuck here.

i wonder why Anarchists never used this as a slogan.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:35

it appears I PM'd someone rather than write here. Sorry that person.

Malabelm · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:40

RuySan wrote:

I'm quite surprised. I thought the vast majority of the British were against the EU.

I really wouldn't take what we say here as any indication of what the general opinions of our country are.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49244

I'm a little confused about what the benefits of a consolidated/federal EU would be. My perspective is that there are three desirable areas:

1) Freedom of trade. We have had this within the EU countries for a long time
2) Consolidation of Defence. The UN pretty much already guarantees us all the defensive treaties we need, unless we decide to go menkle and invade th US or something.
3) Political sway - effectively treating the EU as a voting block within the UN. Would EU integration ever go so far as to replace the existing UN national representatives with a block of 'EU representatives'?

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:44

myp wrote:

Kovacs Caprios wrote:

it mught seem daft but I like the Pound.

Why do you like the Pound?

Tradition, I suppose. I think our currency is part of our identity.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Kovacs Caprios wrote:

myp wrote:

Kovacs Caprios wrote:

it mught seem daft but I like the Pound.

Why do you like the Pound?

Tradition, I suppose. I think our currency is part of our identity.

Only if you're called "Mr Fiver". Mr Shilling is already a lonely and depserate man.

Rodafowa · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:46

Dimrill wrote:

I don't have a country. My parents just happened to fuck here.

Also: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Or the virtue of the vicious, if you prefer.

If Bill Hicks, Oscar Wilde and Dr. Johnson all agree on something I'm happy to go along with them.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 10:52

Let's play "Guess the party from the policy"

Mr Chris can't play as he know what's I've been doing this morning:

1st off:

Quote:

We see a strong, healthy agriculture sector as vital to the country.

Britain’s farming industry will be encouraged to produce a much greater part of the nation’s need in food products.

Priority will be switched from quantity to quality, as we move from competing in a global economy to maximum self-sufficiency for Britain.

We will ensure a major shift to healthier and more sustainable organic farming.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Rodafowa wrote:

Dimrill wrote:

I don't have a country. My parents just happened to fuck here.

Also: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Or the virtue of the vicious, if you prefer.

Gah. Trite sayings are the last refuge of an twit, though. (EDIT - I mean Wilde here, not you.)

Quote:

Oscar Wilde

Most overrated intellect ever. His one trick was coming up with pithy sayings which sounded good but meant very little. And were almost always wrong. Just becuse your contrary position has a nice line for it doesn't make it right.

Quote:

Dr. Johnson

Ah, you've got me there, though, as I have a great deal of respect for him.

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The European Parliament Election (2009) Post of Excellence
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The European Parliament Election (2009) Post of Excellence and possibly of crapulence

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The European Parliament Election (2009) Post of Excellence
and possibly of crapulence