Be Excellent To Each Other

I give up with eBay, at least as a seller. The concept is now completely broken.

If you're a scamming buyer, you hijack someone's Paypal account, and make the purchase which gets sent to you by the unsuspecting seller. Paypal only guarantees your money if Seller Protection is applicable. This is only applicable to verified Paypal accounts and where you're sending to the verified address. Since setting this up requires a fair bit of hassle the vast majority of casual users never do this, and so the seller is seldom protected. The seller sends out his item to the scammer, and Paypal eventually realise what has happened, and then steal the money back out of the seller's account. If the seller has already taken the money out, Paypal freezes the sellers account and (sub please check) if you've got a direct debit set up, recover the money by pincing it right out of your bank account.

So as a seller, you're fucked. Of course, you could insist an alternative payment method like a cheque, which takes ages and not offering Paypal is a real put-off to most buyers. eBay have managed to condition people into believing that paying electronically by any other method than Paypal is unsafe, and most other providers don't get a look in anymore.

Then there's the fees. Listing fees, final value fees, paypal fees. It can make selling stuff really quite uneconomical particularly when all of the above is true.

And finally, there's feedback. As a seller you're fucked, because you can't, under any circumstances, leave negative feedback for the buyer anymore. Even when the buyer never pays, or emails you and calls you a cunt, or is otherwise a complete dick during the course of a transaction, you have no way of publically marking them. The only thing you can do is start an extremely long process via eBay to give them an 'Unpaid Item' strike against the buyers account. You can only initiate this 7 days after the auction has ended, and then you have to wait another 7 days for the buyer to respond, and then you can close it and the buyer gets the 'strike'. All of this requires the wronged seller to be proactive, as eBay never remind you about outstanding cases and otherwise never pester the buyer on your behalf beyond the initial 'a case has been raised against you' email.

So this means the item you're trying to sell is frozen for 14 days after you've sold it, because if the buyer gets off his arse and decides to pay you at any point during this time, you're still obligated to send it to them. If you relist it and sell it to someone else its more likely that the buyer will leave negative feedback for you, and don't get me started on buyers raising 'Item not as described' complaints with Paypal, that almost always find in favour of the buyer. This happens when some cunt buys your Playstation, tries to chip it, fucks it up, then reports the item as broken. He sends it back to you and Paypal steals the refund from your account, leaving you with a brick you can't resell.

And, of course, the way this is all set up means that as a buyer you can make a load of cheap, easy purchases safe in the knowledge that you'll never get negative feedback, and eventually build up enough standing to convincingly perpetrate some massive fraud against some legitimate buyers before ditching the account and never looking back. Whenever I was selling my 50p vouchers on eBay they'd get bought all the time by feedback scammers who would buy, pay, and leave me positive feedback without receiving the voucher, before emaing me to say 'HI PLEASE LEAVE FEEDBACK THANKS', and I would always leave a negative saying 'Feedback scammer, avoid, do not trust', but now of course, I can't do that.

eBay for sellers is totally fucked, and is massively biased towards the buyer, and is now set up in a way that allows for all kinds of fraud.

I recently sold a Sky box, and the fucker never paid. After jumping through the pointless hoops he now has a 'strike' against him but I've still got a box here I have to relist. I've also just sold that cunting PC I made up ages ago, as the first buyer decided not to pay either, and the second buyer has *just* responded 3 days after I raised the 'Non paying bidder' complaint with eBay, and he has now paid. However he is unverified and wants me to send it to an unverified address. I plan to ask him to verify his address (which can be done in a few minutes via Paypal), and otherwise sit on it for a week in case it's some kind of fraud. His 300+ feedback is not enough to convince me.

So yes, to summarise, eBay - bad.

Agreed. I will never sell on eBay again due to the changes they made a few months back.

I think it depends on what you are selling. I have never had any issues in Fossils or Collectables but I imagine if I started selling PC or other technology items I would soon discover the dark side of Ebay.

My gf sold a phone on eBay once. She got a faked Paypal 'you've been paid' email that included this:



I replied and called him a lying scamming cunt who could fuck right off and die, and received this by way of reply:



Suffice to say my reply was even more colourful than my first. If I could reach into the internet and murder these people in a gruesome fashion, I surely would.

Ange recently had her eBay and Hotmail account hacked and 'bought' a memory stick. She emailed eBay to advise them of what happened (after changing all her passwords and memorable information) and they replied back with 'You do not need to do anything, your password has been changed'.

Useless cretins.

my feedback on eBay is 100% (350+ transactions) but I ended up not bothering with it after those changes. BUT I bought MK vs DC from ShopTo.net and unfortunately it's a fucking lemon so I tried to trade it in at Game and they said they couldnt take it cos it's European rather than UK or something. It's PAL but has a wierd 16+ certificate on it.

So, I'm eBaying it (and Bully). I really hope it doesn't all fuck up horribly.

So you're selling something you know to be faulty or do you mean the game is rubbish?

After what happened the last time we discussed this I'll temper my response, but yes... the excuses as to why your (often UK-only listed) item has to be sent to Nigeria are at the very least creative.

Ooh, if the MK vs DC works, and you're just shifting it because you think it's crap I might be interested?

I agree to all of the above, but the main question is, what alternative is there to sell unwanted gear? The impression I get is it's eBay or nothing

The feedback system had to be changed. Fact.

As a buyer I have been sent broken goods and wrong items intentionally at which point I have left bad feedback. I have then had it left for me.

As far as I am concerned PAYING is 100% of a buyers obligation at which point there is no way on earth that it should be possible for him to get bad feedback at all.

By far and away the worst experience I ever had was when I ordered a cold air intake when setting up the turbo on my car. It arrived completely crushed and was just 'chucked' on the doorstep. I informed the seller who then said to take some photos and send them to him, and he would start and insurance claim and then as per ebay rules refund me immediately. I did exactly what was asked of me. At which point I got an email two weeks later saying "OK, when the insurance pays out I will send your refund" I waited another week then left bad feedback explaining how I shouldn't have to wait for the refund per Ebay's rules. He then left ME bad feedback saying I took ages to pay him which wasn't true (even the auction said when I had paid with paypal). I decided to leave it there and not use ebay anymore. A week later I got an email from Squaretrade and found out that this seller had paid them to bully me into removing his feedback. I told them to tell him to go fuck himself, and explained Ebay's rules and policies. In the end I got a refund (3 months after the damaged item arrived) and BOTH the feedbacks were mutually removed. It all left me feeling rather disgusted.

I don't condone fraud by any means or in any way, but something had to change on Ebay. Sellers refuse to leave buyers feedback until the buyer has left them feedback which was something else I totally do not agree with. As far as I am concerned the single moment you send the money via paypal your job is done and you should recieve some kind of automated feedback saying you paid, simple as that.

I do not sell items on ebay anymore as I can't be naffed. If I can't find a buyer through friends or whatnot I'll just keep the shit. But I do use ebay for buying and expect the same service I would get from any retail outlet, even if it is second hand shit.

Car boot sales, jumble sales and whatever else. Just because people have gotten used to getting over the odds prices for their old shit doesn't mean there is no other way to get rid of it.

That's the problem really isn't it? people have gotten greedy and use ebay to get top coin for old crap. When ebay first began I got some incredible deals on there. Now? Madness.. When looking for a 15" monitor I had to wait 3 months before finally getting an 8 year old 15" TFT for 25 quid. With the postage it was 38 or so. All the others? they want 35-40 quid for old shit then 15-20 for the shipping. You can get a 17" on dabs now for about 60 quid brand new.

It did not have to be changed... fact.

Now you can't see who bad a buyer or seller is, can you?

And you don't have to leavefeed back it is Voluntary, you don't have to leave it at all. As a seller I don't leave the buyer feedback untill he leaves some for me, what is wrong with that?

I'm pretty sure "obligated" isn't a word.

Anyway. I think I agree with JohnC, here. I once left negative feedback for a seller who never actually posted the item I paid for, and refused to refund me or prove he sent it. I left appropriate negative feedback and he then negged me right back fairly unpleasantly. I never bothered giving even so much a s a neutral since then.

The risk of having a retaliatory negative feedback must prevent quite a few buyers from giving genuinely shit sellers negative feedback. And so the whole "trusted seller" thing becomes complete bunk. As JC said, the buyer's responsibility is solely to pay. Once that's done, that's it.

I like to see the comments left by people on a seller to see if they are good or not.
I never leave feedback until a customer leaves me some first-I sent out a perfect Clarice Cliff sugar shaker in MINT conditon-nothing wrong with it at all and the cunt I sold it to said, 'damage very unhappy' there was NOTHING wrong with it-so I left him a lovely comment back and said that id there was a problem he should contact me! People are spiteful sometimes for no reason

I hate Ebay now so I never ever intend to go into the antiques trade again on it

yes, if we are selling something we always chech the buyer history, if there is no history we email them.

The wife had the same issues as CG, with a nigerian wanting to buy her phone. Even though we put UK sellers only.

We now use environphone or other such companies for getting rid of mobile, not quite as much money as ebay, but far far less hastle.

i mean rubbish. very rubbish actually. but it does work and I bundled it with Bully.

it's already got bids on it and I was kind enough to say the game is shit in the description!

Could it have been damaged in the post? My local postman seems to take delight in juggling anything that says fragile whilst standing on one leg.

Strange that he did not contact you, I suppose that would indicate that he was just being nasty for the sake of it.

He was, I asked for pics and I would refund it-I didn't send it by Royal Mail, I used a courier as it was 350.00 as it's a 'Cliff'

From the way you have been posting it seems you are heavily in favor of being the 'make all the rules' seller. And that was the biggest problem with ebay.

People were getting ripped off and sent shoddy items that did not make the description and then punished with bad feedback too. Been there, had it done to me THREE times. Every single time I was trying to expose a bad seller and it got me bad feedback.

Not only that I don't take the time to meticulously sit there and read the reasons for the feedback. Bad is bad and slurs the user.

You're only pissed because you got ripped off, and that has nothing to do with feedback systems and everything to do with the fact you're (quite understandably) upset.

Absolutely everything. It's sellers like that that created the problem.

Bottom line is (as I said) once someone has paid you their job is/was done. At that point the ball is firmly in your court. What you do is basically hold that over a buyer's head which is BS. GOOD honest sellers do the feedback as soon as they're paid and then rely on their good customer service to then earn their feedback.

I didn't say it was easy to sell stuff on ebay or be a ebay seller. I've done it myself and sold hundreds of items. But at the end of the day the buyer is the one with the cash and thus the seller should not be able to blackmail them to keep shut if he doesn't provide what he said he would.

The whole reason that sellers do that in the first place is to protect themselves. An ace card. Tell me there's any other reason for it go on? you can't can you? you hold that feedback over their head so that they can't complain.

Hitler style marketplaces are not my thing tbh. No seller should be able to dictate to the buyer, the buyer (customer) is always right in business ethics (any kind of retail business) and thus should'nt have it held over their head and mute them from complaining about a bad seller.

I agree that the feedback system on ebay doesnt work - its always been too easy for the 'bad lot' to screw everything up.

However the many posts about "as soon as the buyer has paid thats it" are not entirely correct.

As a seller i (used to) leave feedback as soon as the item was paid for.

However you do also have that wonderful class of people who are complete and utter ****** of the highest order and after you've sold them stuff will hold "their feedback" over your head to make you jump for their amusement.

In the past i've sold things describing exactly what the item is and what does / does not come with it then have buyers come back and ask for things that "were in the retail box" but not in the item i've sold

Or people who want never ending support for products afterwards (you sold it to me and it doesnt do this - how do i make it do that ?)

As a seller you should be able to leave positive feedback after the buyer has paid , however you should also be able to point out that the buyer is a pain in the ar*e and given the choice you would not want to deal with them again.

Ultimately any system is going to leave one party at a feedback disadvantage.

The seller is the one providing the service so they're the one that should be more closely rated.

I might be misunderstanding your post.

How can you be blackmailed for feedback when you don't have to give it do you?

You can complain if you have feed back or not. The feedback part, is only a small part of Ebay.

Every shop gets a shitty customer from time to time man. That's the nature of taking people's money.

I don't entirely agree with the 'new' feedback system either and I'm not the biggest fan of ebay (reasons above) but at the end of the day if you're selling items for money then you have to accept the joys and pitfalls of retail.

In honesty Ebay isn't the magical place everyone thought it was. Flaws and loopholes have been found and exploited and they just don't have a real fix because of laws. So tbh it's never going to be fixed and it'll never be 'right'. I only use it when I can't find another option, but tbh I wish I hadn't even bought that monitor now.

After buying it I picked up our local classified papers and saw an Emac (the 17" crt one) 1.4ghz with a gb of ram BRAND NEW in the box for 50 quid. It was only about 4 miles away too. All I wanted was a computer for mum to learn on so that would have been ideal. I bet that would have sold for alot more on ebay.

Thankfully I live about three miles from one of the UKs largest car boot sale/markets so I do most of my buying and selling there

I am sorry for being sarcastic with the 'fact' bit. But opinion can never be fact can it?

If i am a seller I want protection.
If I am a buyer I also want protection.

Thus I am in favour of any system that protects both, turning off bad feedback is not good is it?

I have never been ripped off on Ebay so I am not pissed, the phone thig was resloved, we just relisted...

I am one of those people that did read the feedback, I also read reviews on stuff I buy and online retailers. I work hard for my money and I want to use it in the best way, so I research. In fact I research so much the wife takes the piss out of me

I've been burnt by ebay alot of times.. So I guess I shouldn't be pissing and whining tbh. The problem was bad sellers.. As I said above man I really don't think there is any way to fix ebay. It's not like a market stall where you can go back and get into it with the seller if there's a problem and 99.9% of people act TOTALLY differently on the internet and have a law unto themselves.

And that's what I love about this forum. At least people attempt to be who they really are in the real world and act that way.

LOL I wish I could have just said that

hahahahaha

God I hope not.

I'll have you know I just had some coffee go down the wrong hole because of that post.

Now I'm gonna sit here trying to clear my throat for about two hours.. "ERRRR..ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" and it's all your fault.

Prince?

No no Nooooo! I swear, pretty much everything I've had delivered by courier arrived like it'd been bounced it off the fucking depot walls a few times. Still in one piece, but only just in some cases. Royal Mail/An Post has been infinitely better every time I've stayed with 'em. Plus they can find your house. Maybe it's just an Irish thing, but I'd certainly never choose a courier again when given the choice.

As for this eBay malarkey, I was very hesitant about selling some bits and pieces on there recently (especially as the stuff included a graphics card, laptop and some spare memory, all previously used), but ended up dealing with some perfectly nice customers and having no problems with them at all. The laptop did strike some weird clause with Paypal where the actual payment got delayed for a silly amount of time (apparently this happens for new sellers receiving payments over a hundred or so), but it eventually cleared fine.

I have had 1 problem in my history of using couriers-we have/had 3 companies that we used for work, so I used them for Ebay aswell-there was a small problem once with the item being late by 3 days due to a strike-but no damage. I have sent over 50 items with those companies so those are good odds for me.

The customer did not want to take pictures of the Sugar shaker as there was NOTHING wrong with it-they were just moaning because they are cunts. I saw other reviews they had left and received and it seemed on closer inspection that they did moan a lot and the sellers always said, 'it wasn't our fault.' In hindsight I should have just said 'piss off' to him buying it

Can't read through the whole thread due to connection issues, but CG's piece hits the nail on the head. Ebay is now a scam designed to extort as much money as possible. However it is still the only way to sell most items. Frankly they are in a position they can abuse.

I rarely sell on Ebay but have been lucky with my buyers. Even the strange Polish man who purchased my old Acer laptop in August turned up with cash and didn't even want to check if the laptop worked!

It always has been. They're just finding more and more ways to screw you out of a buck.

They should have made it so that as soon as payment is cleared the buyer gets a star rating based on the time taken to pay (eg. 5 stars for less than 24 hours, decreasing a star with each day). All the seller is able to do is provide accompanying comments.

That way you can't get retaliatory feedback for buying something and then giving negative feedback to the seller because of a dodgy item.

...is exactly the only way to improve the system. Considering ebay own paypal and (I think I'm right in saying) insist on it's use for selling certain types of items, the integration of paypal into the rating & feedback system is pathetic.

A simple tick beside the buyer indicating that they'd sent payment would cut out all the "didn't pay" retaliatory feedback that used to go on.

I'm also a little confused about how throwaway accounts created for scamming are so easily created. When I registered with ebay years ago, I'm sure I had to give a credit card which had £1.42 or something debited, which I then confirmed. How do the scammers generated the new accounts so easily?

I didn't have to provide bank details (I registered in October of last year) but I did have to give a phone number (landline) which a computer then rang to give me a code.

I was unable to message other Ebay users at that point but other than that I was free to buy whatever I wanted.

I think the deposits into the bank account thing is to become a Paypal verified account holder, not from ebay itself.

That is correct

I am confused as to what buyer feedback actually achieves? Surely if a buyer has bid the highest bid, they have one that auction, and the seller is obliged to to sell to that person, upon payment, obviously. Or can you dismiss a bid off someone you don't like?

I guess it might warn you to make sure a cheque clears before sending anything out.

Well there is/was a thing where you could say 'sent after cheque is cashed' and also there was an option to turn away anyone with a bad feedback rating of like 50% or something-I haven't used it in a white though, so that may have changed now with the new terms.

Surely you shouldn't have to say that you won't send an item out until after a cheque is chashed, that's just common sense.

It is ebay you are on about.... common sense does not apply always

Yeah, good point.

That should say cashed, although I meant cleared.. gah.

A cleared cheque can still be rescinded, though.

Also, at auction the offer (the bid) is accepted at the fall of the auctioneer's hammer.

Yes, but that is at cost to the winning bidder, or do you mean if it's a stolen cheque book?

A gives B a cheque. B puts cheque in bank. Cheque clears. A asks his bank to recind cleared cheque. Bank does so. It's how the "I'll give you a cheque for £5k for a £1500 item, and you send me the item and £3500 back" scams work.