Curiosity wrote:
MrChris wrote:
I was talking to Ruth about this the other day. I’m inherently uncomfortable with some people’s approach of putting everything on the same spectrum, from unwanted flirtation to rape, as if there is any remote moral equivalence there, or as if one is a gateway drug to the other. I can't provide links off the top of my head but the tenor of some of the commentary has been along those lines.
And the vague moral panic that’s going on at the moment is in some respects a little bit odd. Whilst Fallon is an objectionable twat, if all he’s really done is put his hand on Julia Hartley-Brewer’s knee umpteen years ago, and she doesn’t care about it, I’m not sure why this is a “fall on your sword” issue or why there is any line being drawn between that and Harvey Weinstein. I was also disappointed that the BBC, in the context of all of this, had that barrister on who made that bloke’s life a misery after he messaged her on LinkedIn saying he thought she had a stunning photo.
Yes, there’s undoubtedly an issue with men and sexual assault, and with men in positions of power using that power in an inappropriate way (#notallmen) but conflating all of this into one big ball of anger about everything that is verging on a score settling witch hunt in areas (god knows both main UK political parties seem to be doing this) seems counterproductive.
However, whilst I think at the bottom end of that spectrum, the unwanted flirtation in a bar, the looking at a pretty lady or whatever, you’re arguably, as an individual, not doing anything “wrong” per se, it’s worth bearing in mind you may be the third or fourth person to try to chat that woman up in the bar that evening when all she wants to do is the Times crossword, or she may have been stared at ALL DAY by rando weird men. It’s perfectly reasonable for her to then be fairly pissed off and let you know that. But then, as with much in life, a little bit of empathy for other people goes a long way.
To only address one point, the Fallon thing is very much not about one hand on JHB’s knee. More has already come out, and more will follow.
What irks me is how there are lots of nods and “Yeah, he was always a bit dodgy”. Had it with Saville, now every fucker is saying it about Spacey and Family Guy jokes about him in this way years ago.
The annoyance is not at any victims or even those who were arguably complicit but didn’t feel able to speak out, just in general.
I remember once a boss of mine was very ‘handsy’ with a colleague in our team. He was drunk and it was late and all that usual shit. Made it very uncomfortable for the colleague in question, and for the rest of us. We tried to engineer it so it stopped, but even in that situation none of us felt comfortable in saying anything (all people in this story are male, which might be a factor, I dunno). Nobody wanted a scene, but even raising it with the person in question seemed impossible as they controlled our destiny.
I was thinking about this on the way home.
There’s often a broader issue with people being scared to speak up - if this individual had been breaking laws or taking bribes would anybody’have said anything?
We need a culture, whether at work or generally, where people are comfortable to speak out - either to the person concerned or to someone else in power. But it’s like that thing where a load of people stand around watching a crime and they all assume someone else is calling the police. Only it’s worse because they all feel like they might get in trouble for doing it.
So for this sort of thing I think men need to more actively speak up when they think other men are doing something either flat out morally wrong or even that is just making a woman uncomfortable (“she’s been chatted up four times already and isn’t interested”).
I know I’ve taken to being more actively outspoken about behaviour I think is off - I think HR are getting sick of hearing from me... because whilst the big stuff is already illegal and if people don’t know it’s wrong there’s no fucking helping them, there’s plenty of other stuff that acts as background noise that makes women’s lives that little bit harder. Why should Ruth have to worry about jogging past a group of lads on a park bench....
I said earlier I don’t have any solutions. I don’t, but, whilst it’s a bit “wouldn’t it be nice if everyone were nice”, I do take the view that your starting point should be “be kind, respectful and considerate” and generally you can’t go far wrong.
To use that example from earlier, whilst approaching a woman in a bar isn’t wrong as such, it’s worth taking a moment to think how it might be received.