I think it absolutely is, and that's my basic stance. You're disaffected, and someone appears who tells you that you're right to feel that way, because everyone's failing you. That makes sense.
You're still an idiot though for not spending even the tiniest amount of critical thinking on whether the person telling you this is either
A) telling you things that are even slightly true
or
B) in the tiniest bit capable of doing anything to address those problems
You're still an idiot though for not spending even the tiniest amount of critical thinking on whether the person telling you this is either
A) telling you things that are even slightly true
or
B) in the tiniest bit capable of doing anything to address those problems
One thing I just saw pointed out on Twitter that was right there all along on the charts I've seen all day that people were using to say that it wasn't poor people who voted for Trump is that there was a 16% swing in that group to Republican, bigger than any other. That's hugely significant.
Personally the actions of the media have sickened me throughout this. Creating false equivalence to keep the race competitive to their own benefit, overreporting the nonsense about Clinton and barely reporting at all the vast amounts of criminal behaviour Trump has already engaged in.
First president in living memory with no published tax returns is the least of it.
First president in living memory with no published tax returns is the least of it.
I'm glancing over the few graphs/charts and lazily drawimg ideas out of it but you just want to shout WHITE PEOPLE.I don't think all white people voting Trump put him in there, I think the over representation of the non college educated is enough of an thing to take note of but there's a strong possibility that support the democrats thought was there didn't appear like on 2012. It's going to be more nuanced. But I'm typing on a phone and it takes a while and it isn't really worth my time.
Cras wrote:
Personally the actions of the media have sickened me throughout this. Creating false equivalence to keep the race competitive to their own benefit, overreporting the nonsense about Clinton and barely reporting at all the vast amounts of criminal behaviour Trump has already engaged in.
First president in living memory with no published tax returns is the least of it.
First president in living memory with no published tax returns is the least of it.
Oh, yes.
Well; rural voters put him there. They're all white 
markg wrote:
One thing I just saw pointed out on Twitter that was right there all along on the charts I've seen all day that people were using to say that it wasn't poor people who voted for Trump is that there was a 16% swing in that group to Republican, bigger than any other. That's hugely significant.
People just didn't like Clinton.
Still... I don't like marmite, but I wouldn't spread dog shit on my toast as the alternative.
Cras wrote:
Well; rural voters put him there. They're all white
Well indeed.
White people are the majority, though. Surely whoever won you could have said it was because of white people.
The only consolation is in four years' time we'll know he'll either be on his way out in January 2021 or, worst case, in January 2025.
Cras wrote:
Well; rural voters put him there. They're all white
Yes, I was more taking issue with the "white people voted Trump in" across all sections" . The poor, thick is bit I linked to this morning and even commented on what they'd do to try to make it better for themselves.
MaliA wrote:
Cras wrote:
Well; rural voters put him there. They're all white
Yes, I was more taking issue with the "white people voted Trump in" across all sections" . The poor, thick is bit I linked to this morning and even commented on what they'd do to try to make it better for themselves.
More white people with college degrees voted Trump than Clinton. How's that for you?
markg wrote:
There seems to be a view that it's wrong to chastise people and you should try to understand them instead and create policy to address those issues.
It's not that it's wrong to dismiss them as "dozy bastards"; go ahead, fill your boots. But know that you are actively contributing to Trump's 2020 re-election campaign by doing so. Trump fed off the energy created by (from his supporters' view) sneering, dismissive, middle class liberal elites and he will continue to do so in office.
The most depressing thing is that Trump is also a sneering, dismissive, middle class liberal elite.
It's hard on this side of the Atlantic to fully comprehend how much many Republicans hate the Obama administration and its works. I've sat in bars and listened to people say stuff that, to me, was quite extraordinary (eg universal healthcare is akin to socialism; the ongoing fear of gun control) but to them is just standard discourse.
Lonewolves wrote:
The most depressing thing is that Trump is also a sneering, dismissive, middle class liberal elite.
Oh, he's definitely a chav. Have you seen the amount of gold in his penthouse? Posh and Becks would be jealous.
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
markg wrote:
There seems to be a view that it's wrong to chastise people and you should try to understand them instead and create policy to address those issues.
It's not that it's wrong to dismiss them as "dozy bastards"; go ahead, fill your boots. But know that you are actively contributing to Trump's 2020 re-election campaign by doing so. Trump fed off the energy created by (from his supporters' view) sneering, dismissive, middle class liberal elites and he will continue to do so in office.
I repeat something I said earlier in the year. Disaffected rural blue collar Americans have just voted to elect a man who sits at the top of a literal tower on a literal gold throne because he can best sympathise with their concerns.
Cras wrote:
Disaffected rural blue collar Americans have just voted to elect a man who sits at the top of a literal tower on a literal gold throne because he can best sympathise with their concerns.
I'm stealing this
The former imperial wizard of the KKK. I'll just leave this here.
https://twitter.com/drdavidduke/status/ ... 4826687488
PS - I still can't post screenshots because it thinks they're jpgs for some reason.
https://twitter.com/drdavidduke/status/ ... 4826687488
This is one of the most exciting nights of my life -> make no mistake about it, our people have played a HUGE role in electing Trump! #MAGA pic.twitter.com/HvJyiJYuVa
— David Duke (@DrDavidDuke) November 9, 2016
PS - I still can't post screenshots because it thinks they're jpgs for some reason.
markg wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
markg wrote:
There seems to be a view that it's wrong to chastise people and you should try to understand them instead and create policy to address those issues.
It's not that it's wrong to dismiss them as "dozy bastards"; go ahead, fill your boots. But know that you are actively contributing to Trump's 2020 re-election campaign by doing so. Trump fed off the energy created by (from his supporters' view) sneering, dismissive, middle class liberal elites and he will continue to do so in office.
Enough of this absurd reticence to call a spade a bloody spade
, especially now of all times. If we can't call it as we see it now, then when can we? FFS, these are desperate, desperate times, and intelligent, fair-minded folk precisely *need* to speak up, as a bulwark to this post-truther bullshit that pervades fucking Twitter and wherever else in the 'new media', that has landed us all in such deep shit."Oooh, I mustn't offend anyone, I might not get "liked""
Just saying...
Attachment:
dunningkruger.png
It was bad enough during the W era when any criticism seemed to be taken as 'disrespecting the president'. Personally, I think the office is greater than the man, and criticising the president shows respect for the institution.
But I'm not American and am glad the head of government is not the head of state.
But I'm not American and am glad the head of government is not the head of state.
I don't think that's what is being said, Cavey. Call a spade a spade here on Beex, amaze at the "dozy bastards", sure... but calling them (the idiot voters) dozy bastards to their faces won't suddenly make them sit up and pay attention and change their minds. It'll just make them dig their heels in further. Carrot vs stick and all that.
(I say this having insulted a handful of Trump supporters myself today. Do as I say not as I do and all that.)
(I say this having insulted a handful of Trump supporters myself today. Do as I say not as I do and all that.)
Jem wrote:
I don't think that's what is being said, Cavey. Call a spade a spade here on Beex, amaze at the "dozy bastards", sure... but calling them (the idiot voters) dozy bastards to their faces won't suddenly make them sit up and pay attention and change their minds. It'll just make them dig their heels in further. Carrot vs stick and all that.
(I say this having insulted a handful of Trump supporters myself today. Do as I say not as I do and all that.)
(I say this having insulted a handful of Trump supporters myself today. Do as I say not as I do and all that.)
Well sure, if I'm arguing with a leave voter I probably wouldn't call them a dozy bastard but I also don't really hide my sheer weariness and exasperation. Making people actually justify what they're telling you is pretty fundamental to debate and not doing that is just massively condescending.
markg wrote:
Jem wrote:
I don't think that's what is being said, Cavey. Call a spade a spade here on Beex, amaze at the "dozy bastards", sure... but calling them (the idiot voters) dozy bastards to their faces won't suddenly make them sit up and pay attention and change their minds. It'll just make them dig their heels in further. Carrot vs stick and all that.
(I say this having insulted a handful of Trump supporters myself today. Do as I say not as I do and all that.)
(I say this having insulted a handful of Trump supporters myself today. Do as I say not as I do and all that.)
Well sure, if I'm arguing with a leave voter I probably wouldn't call them a dozy bastard but I also don't really hide my sheer weariness and exasperation. Making people actually justify what they're telling you is pretty fundamental to debate and not doing that is just massively condescending.
There, there.
I disagree, Jem; if people are being stupid - by not even doing the most basic fact-checking and/or having zero critical faculties due to not being arsed and/or too deluded to even face the actual truth of a given situation, well, I'm sorry, but they deserve to be told they ARE stupid, to their faces. Why spare them the indignity of it, since it affects all of us? I've no time for irrational cults, or willful ignorance.
One would hope that in so doing, a few of them might change, or at least make the slightest effort? One thing's for sure, doing nothing is NOT going to help, or change anything.
One would hope that in so doing, a few of them might change, or at least make the slightest effort? One thing's for sure, doing nothing is NOT going to help, or change anything.
Cavey wrote:
I disagree, Jem; if people are being stupid - by not even doing the most basic fact-checking and/or having zero critical faculties due to not being arsed and/or too deluded to even face the actual truth of a given situation, well, I'm sorry, but they deserve to be told they ARE stupid, to their faces. Why spare them the indignity of it, since it affects all of us? I've no time for irrational cults.
One would hope that in so doing, a few of them might change, or at least make the slightest effort? One thing's for sure, doing nothing is NOT going to help, or change anything.
One would hope that in so doing, a few of them might change, or at least make the slightest effort? One thing's for sure, doing nothing is NOT going to help, or change anything.
It didn't work for Brexit. It didn't work last night. I'm not saying I have the answers, but the status quo isn't working.
Lonewolves wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Cras wrote:
Well; rural voters put him there. They're all white
Yes, I was more taking issue with the "white people voted Trump in" across all sections" . The poor, thick is bit I linked to this morning and even commented on what they'd do to try to make it better for themselves.
More white people with college degrees voted Trump than Clinton. How's that for you?
It appears that the biggest increase in people voting for Republicans in a demographic was white without college education from that graph Rich posted.
With college education and white has increased only slightly it stayed the same, there's not so much an imbalance.
The former group, it appears, was enough to push over the line, and had a bigger effect than the latter group.
Their reasoning for voting for Trump was explained in the articles linked previously, and seems sound.
Them not voting, it voting for Clinton would maintain the status quo and that wasn't acceptable to them so Trump offered best chance of changing that to their minds.
It seems that a surge if support from minority groups did not reach levels enough to counterbalance the redneck vote.
So, not all white people to blame as ℅ages seem fair constant at a glance in other slices of population for Republicans, and minority support not as much as hoped for Clinton.
Is what I am trying to say.
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference! Stop being so defensive. You're not even American and you're sticking up for their white population.
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference! Stop being so defensive. You're not even American and you're sticking up for their white population.
#notallwhitepeople
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference!
They'd struggle not to be, what with the overwhelming majority they have.
I'm not convinced any of the voters are to blame.
Jem wrote:
Cavey wrote:
I disagree, Jem; if people are being stupid - by not even doing the most basic fact-checking and/or having zero critical faculties due to not being arsed and/or too deluded to even face the actual truth of a given situation, well, I'm sorry, but they deserve to be told they ARE stupid, to their faces. Why spare them the indignity of it, since it affects all of us? I've no time for irrational cults.
One would hope that in so doing, a few of them might change, or at least make the slightest effort? One thing's for sure, doing nothing is NOT going to help, or change anything.
One would hope that in so doing, a few of them might change, or at least make the slightest effort? One thing's for sure, doing nothing is NOT going to help, or change anything.
It didn't work for Brexit. It didn't work last night. I'm not saying I have the answers, but the status quo isn't working.
But Jem, I don't think anyone did robustly take on Trump's (or Farage's) *supporters*; it is precisely this status quo that does permit the willfully misinformed to spout/re-state discredited nonsense for fear of any meaningful challenge causing offence and/or being told by people like Gaywood that you're somehow directly contributing to the future success/re-election of Trump or whatever.
I'm turning your argument on its head, basically. I'm suggesting that this undue deference and tolerance in the face of face-melting, cult-like stupidity is what we have now, for reasons of misplaced etiquette or whatever - and it needs to stop, for all our sakes. We need to get real and fight just as hard and as dirty as they do, for the things we believe in - because if we don't, we are going to keep losing.
Anyway, nuff said etc.
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference! Stop being so defensive. You're not even American and you're sticking up for their white population.
I am vaguely interested in the digging more than anything and was hoping someone would do the digging for me as I am Busy and Important. I don't think I am defending white americans just trying to see where the swing was.
Trump is what happens when you side with the French in 19th Century.
Grim... wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference!
They'd struggle not to be, what with the overwhelming majority they have.
I'm not convinced any of the voters are to blame.
At fault maybe, but not to blame, in my mind. Hang the blame on politicians, the political system, and the media.
MaliA wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference! Stop being so defensive. You're not even American and you're sticking up for their white population.
I am vaguely interested in the digging more than anything and was hoping someone would do the digging for me as I am Busy and Important. I don't think I am defending white americans just trying to see where the swing was.
Not swing, turnout. Rural turnout was through the roof, urban turnout not so much.
Cras wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference!
They'd struggle not to be, what with the overwhelming majority they have.
I'm not convinced any of the voters are to blame.
At fault maybe, but not to blame, in my mind. Hang the blame on politicians, the political system, and the media.
Yes, they literally voted for him so they are at fault. But yeah, blame should definitely be shared around, for sure.
Cras wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference! Stop being so defensive. You're not even American and you're sticking up for their white population.
I am vaguely interested in the digging more than anything and was hoping someone would do the digging for me as I am Busy and Important. I don't think I am defending white americans just trying to see where the swing was.
Not swing, turnout. Rural turnout was through the roof, urban turnout not so much.
Yeah that. Have you even slept?
Cavey wrote:
But Jem, I don't think anyone did robustly take on Trump's (or Farage's) *supporters*; it is precisely this status quo that does permit the willfully misinformed to spout/re-state discredited nonsense for fear of any meaningful challenge causing offence and/or being told by people like Gaywood that you're somehow directly contributing to the future success/re-election of Trump or whatever.
I'm turning your argument on its head, basically. I'm suggesting that this undue deference and tolerance in the face of face-melting, cult-like stupidity is what we have now, for reasons of misplaced etiquette or whatever - and it needs to stop, for all our sakes. We need to get real and fight just as hard and as dirty as they do, for the things we believe in - because if we don't, we are going to keep losing.
Anyway, nuff said etc.
I'm turning your argument on its head, basically. I'm suggesting that this undue deference and tolerance in the face of face-melting, cult-like stupidity is what we have now, for reasons of misplaced etiquette or whatever - and it needs to stop, for all our sakes. We need to get real and fight just as hard and as dirty as they do, for the things we believe in - because if we don't, we are going to keep losing.
Anyway, nuff said etc.
Too tired to argue with you dude... but welcome back
Result is in and of course people don't like it, not much that can be done about that really.
Trump is offensive, sexist and right wing.
Looks like a lot of people in the US don't give a fuck, when compared with Clinton who is a elitist, dishonest and has abused her position for money and quite possible broken the law.
Trump is offensive, sexist and right wing.
Looks like a lot of people in the US don't give a fuck, when compared with Clinton who is a elitist, dishonest and has abused her position for money and quite possible broken the law.
MaliA wrote:
Yeah that. Have you even slept?
A bit. Sleep is for the weak.
Lonewolves wrote:
Cras wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference!
They'd struggle not to be, what with the overwhelming majority they have.
I'm not convinced any of the voters are to blame.
At fault maybe, but not to blame, in my mind. Hang the blame on politicians, the political system, and the media.
Yes, they literally voted for him so they are at fault.
Did they do the pushing, too?
Note that this is not a reply to be taken seriously.
asfish wrote:
Result is in and of course people don't like it, not much that can be done about that really.
Trump is offensive, sexist and right wing, elitist, dishonest and has abused his position for money and quite possible broken the law.
Looks like a lot of people in the US don't give a fuck, when compared with Clinton who is a elitist, dishonest and has abused her position for money and quite possible broken the law.
Trump is offensive, sexist and right wing, elitist, dishonest and has abused his position for money and quite possible broken the law.
Looks like a lot of people in the US don't give a fuck, when compared with Clinton who is a elitist, dishonest and has abused her position for money and quite possible broken the law.
FeEx.
GazChap wrote:
asfish wrote:
Result is in and of course people don't like it, not much that can be done about that really.
Trump is offensive, sexist and right wing, elitist, dishonest and has abused his position for money and very definitely broken the law on numerous occasions as a matter of record.
Looks like a lot of people in the US don't give a fuck, when compared with Clinton who is a elitist, dishonest and has abused her position for money and quite possible broken the law.
Trump is offensive, sexist and right wing, elitist, dishonest and has abused his position for money and very definitely broken the law on numerous occasions as a matter of record.
Looks like a lot of people in the US don't give a fuck, when compared with Clinton who is a elitist, dishonest and has abused her position for money and quite possible broken the law.
FeEx.
ExtraFeex
Grim... wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Cras wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I didn't say 'all white people are to blame', I said 'white people are to blame'. There is a difference!
They'd struggle not to be, what with the overwhelming majority they have.
I'm not convinced any of the voters are to blame.
At fault maybe, but not to blame, in my mind. Hang the blame on politicians, the political system, and the media.
Yes, they literally voted for him so they are at fault.
Did they do the pushing, too?
Note that this is not a reply to be taken seriously.
I didn't get it so I can't take it seriously.
The thing is, what are the rednecks going to do when Trump ignores them just like every other politician?
What's going to happen, when Trump cracks down on illegal workers and the price of food increases (just like every other time it's been tried, each time the government ends up looking the other way, cos it turns out you have to pay americans a decent wage to pick fruit)
What's going to happen when the Trump-brand "Quick and easy solution to all my problems" turns out to solve none of them, only add more?
Hey, they've still got their guns...
Coming 2018, Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo
What's going to happen, when Trump cracks down on illegal workers and the price of food increases (just like every other time it's been tried, each time the government ends up looking the other way, cos it turns out you have to pay americans a decent wage to pick fruit)
What's going to happen when the Trump-brand "Quick and easy solution to all my problems" turns out to solve none of them, only add more?
Hey, they've still got their guns...
Coming 2018, Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo
I think most of them are full of shit if it comes down to it. Not many people would actually want to take up arms unless things were truly desperate and they were directly threatened.
Lonewolves wrote:
Don't forget there will be a Republican appointment to the Supreme Court as well, making it a 3:2 conservative majority
That's not strictly true.
Scalia died and left it at 4-4. They need a 9th appointment, and the Republicans breaking the constitution to avoid appointing a 9th was fucked up.
Scalia was arch-conservative, and it's worth noting that even with him there they passed several progressive judgements that he dissented on. Replacing him with like-for-like does not make the Court reliably Republican, and whoever gets the job won't be able to, say, overturn Roe vs Wade any more than Scalia could.
The issue is that if in the next four years one of the Dems leaves the court or dies, they will be replaced by someone of the far right, which will then likely make it 5 hard right Rep voices and abortion will become illegal.
The Dem justices are fucking old, and I think (subs please check) that at least one said they would retire in this cycle. So we've got to hope they change their mind.