MaliA wrote:
I have a problem when I read arguments for changing The System. I can never help but feel what is driving the want for such a change isn't a more level playing field for all, but to alter the rules to obtain a more palatable result for those wanting change.
The Lib Dems did this last term, looking to improve their position (at the cost of tuition fees) and I'm pleased it failed. Where PR does exist, many find the results equally awful, with UKIP being MEPs.
I've never voted LibDem in my life. And I didn't just imply PR, of which I realise there are better and worse variants of, STV being the most transparent and democratic. I meant a wider reform of the system, e.g. an elected second chamber, shorter parliamentary terms in the Commons, perhaps even radical moves such as creating an unicameral parliament, or even full federalism. (Unfortunately having an elected head of state is probably out of question in this country.)
Cavey wrote:
Clearly, any system - FPTP, AV or PR - all have their pros and cons. I totally get Doc's point about UKIP's democratic deficit, but for me, the prospect of PR and endless paralysed, hand-wringing, horse-trading unstable rainbow coalitions such as those of the Continent (Italy and Greece spring to mind) fill me with dread.
Except "unstable rainbow coalitions" are a rare if nonexistent thing even in the countries you have mentioned. Italy currently has a grand coalition of sorts (the centre-left Democratic Party supported by smaller centre-right parties) that has lasted going on three and half years. Before it, Berlusconi had a stable majority and would've lasted his term easily if not for the financial crisis. Italy if anything had very stable governments - the
Democrazia Cristiana was the largest party and governed from 1948 until 1994 until it imploded, which of course caused many problems, but was unrelated to the voting systems. Also, Greece in fact has had exclusively single-party governments (lead by New Democracy or PASOK) until only a few years ago, when a ND-PASOK-DIMAR grand coalition was replaced by a SYRIZA-ANEL coalition.
JBR wrote:
And surely 'Germany' is the answer in general to worries about PR? As in - the idea that PR leads to paralysis etc. is disproven by the countries who use it and succeed.
Exactly. Germany disproves that massively, at state and federal level. The idea that PR = paralysis is complete bollocks, and is easily disproven from examples of many countries. Anyone who claims otherwise is ignorant or lying to make a point, frankly.
JBR wrote:
Plus I remember a swathe of anti-FPTP articles which suggested only us and the failing PIGS countries (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain) used it.
Those countries haven't used FPTP in recent decades. However, Spain, Greece and Portugal had single-party governments until the recent crisis. Greece I've explained above; Portugal currently has a single-party government (lead by the Socialist Party) installed at the end of last year; Spain is holding a general election this month after a bizarre and unworkable electoral outcome last December overturned decades of having a straight two-party system.