Why would a metal structure be a weeping angel? Why was River there? Why didn't they use the VM? Why can't the doctor go back to them? He's broken that rule with the Ponds plenty before.
Why didn't the bloke who knew so much about the Angels just get mirrors up on each wall?
Davies was much better at the goodbyes. Also, I need to avoid anything at all to do with forthcoming episodes from now on, they needed not to make a big deal of how sad it was going to be for the last six months.
It was always known that Who was scary in the past, but did the BBC play up to that in links, etc? I think they just got on with it.
Joined: 30th Mar, 2008 Posts: 3289 Location: Sheffield or Baku
Overall a good episode but what stopped it being a brilliant episode was the overwrought, mawkish nature of the end of it...if they had played it straighter then the emotional impact would have been greater. Maybe I'm too old for TV these days, I don't need a big neon sign to realise that certain choices are hard to make.
_________________ If work was so rewarding the rich would have bought it all.
It's made for Americans now, and certain compromises will continue to be made until it next gets cancelled. I've been told over and over by BBC, blogs, twitter, etc that today would be SAD and SCARY and so on, but it was neither.
It's made for Americans now, and certain compromises will continue to be made until it next gets cancelled. I've been told over and over by BBC, blogs, twitter, etc that today would be SAD and SCARY and so on, but it was neither.
It's a shame that they didn't market it as full of plot holes and badly written - they would have at least been right.
Joined: 30th Mar, 2008 Posts: 8062 Location: Cardiff
The plot holes were annoying in the 'it would only take ten extra lines or so to answer for them' kind of way but they didn't scupper it for me. My real beef with the episode is on a more troubling level in that I didn't give a damn emotionally. His characters just aren't connecting on a human level in his scripts, rather than a carefully developed emotional climax the characters just seem balls riccocheting in a pinball machine. I can't quite describe it though, as I have just got back from t'pub and am drunk.
I did however watch Firefly's 'Safe' this evening also, and the emotions in its simple plot seemed far more richer and true despite being completely unepic.
Also, go away Melody/River Song. And wait a minute, the entire book thing makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
I've enjoyed them, but I think that's because though I have enjoyed past incarnations and series I'm still able to sit down in front of the TV with no hard-coded ideals of what I think the characters or world should be like, can accept changes to previously accepted ideas and ultimately sit down with no pre-conceived expectations, just the hope for a bit of Saturday-evening entertainment.
I had a few tears last night, but I think that was Russell's fault. Who couldn't look at that soppy face with tears in his eyes and feel the same? Awww. I thought it was a nice episode to snuggle up with.
I think GY has a fair point. I don't watch much TV, so didn't know it was supposed to be sad/scary etc, but the fucking presenter as the show starts says, "... in this heartbreaking episode." Pretty much ruining the attempt by Moffat to offer any sort of surprise in the
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
bit where you think they have made it back okay
. Also, agreed, there is was something missing, I don't know what, it just seemed to go on for too long.
_________________ No, it was a giant robot castle!
I enjoyed it, but the ending lacked the emotional hit it could have had, due to over a year's worth of trailing*. I'm glad it wasn't just a rehash of 'Blink', though the Angels have lost of some of their menace and seemed to be more of reason to hang the story about the trio around
Also, River Song seems to have lost her ballsiness in this episode. Too...nice.
I'm quite happy with self-contained, 'Twilight Zone'-esque stories as well as big, epic stuff, and whilst there might have been flaws and gaping plot holes, I don't find them detracting from my enjoyment of the show.
EDIT: Oh, just realised. The book thing was a nice twist on the DVD extras used to send messages in 'Blink'.
*Similarly, I was re-watching the Ecclestone series the other month, and felt that the ending would have worked so much better had we not had forewarning that he was leaving, but then, it would be impossible to have avoided this.
Joined: 30th Mar, 2008 Posts: 8062 Location: Cardiff
GovernmentYard wrote:
It's made for Americans now, and certain compromises will continue to be made until it next gets cancelled. I've been told over and over by BBC, blogs, twitter, etc that today would be SAD and SCARY and so on, but it was neither.
Nowt to do with being made for Americans. The original spirt of Doctor Who is still there and they really dig it, in fact my friends in Oregon like the classic stuff as well now.
The problem is arrogance and sloppiness in the storytelling, which is really beginning to ruin Moffat.
Messages hidden in the past, in Ming vases, etc? He's done that to death with "Hello Sweetie." The cherubs are cool looking but simply dinkier versions of the Angels. Rory dying, three times in one episode? And while the Statue of Liberty is a neat motif (and I imagine the Angels on some level simply inhabit chosen inanimate sculptures like a crab in a shell) are we to believe that at no point there was at least one New Yorker looking at it?
Also he's got a really bad habit of just telling us something's true by using the Doctor to breezily state it, hoping that since the Time Lord is an authority we won't question it. "We can't go back!" Oh, all right then. Er, what about going to Washington and then hopping on a train? "They're stuck there forever! Noes!" What?
And what about Brian, eh?
Another problem is the book angle. River is basically writing a cheerful, breezy thriller about how her and the Doctor lose two people they love and will never, ever see them again. Which emotionally makes absolutely no fucking sense. If it's all going to happen anyway, why write about it? At least in that way? Surely if you were trying to communicate with someone you loved it would, y'know, show in the material.
But the biggest flaw is something that had been niggling me for a while. There's just not enough reason to care about Amy Pond. Her character never really got fleshed out. She was always someone in Moffat's hands who had things done to her, but never actually grew into anyone in particular. The irony is that the third wheel of the party, Rory, grew more of a character through his progression from hapless bumbler through to heroic centurion and practical, emotionally mature husband. I'd noticed for a while that I was far more troubled whenever Rory was in danger (which was often) than when Amy was, with the singular exception of the excellent Amy's Choice, which actually took her character somewhere, if only to reset at the end. This isn't Karen Gillan's fault, she does well with a thinly sketched character. But Amy despite her cool beginning and all the promise shown by Eleventh Hour simply wasn't a patch on Rose's journey in series one or Donna Noble's ultimately tragic zero-to-hero and back again.
And despite liking her first couple of appearences I just cannot stand River Song anymore. If the show had the guts to ride with her psychopathic side, make her a real agent of chaos, then there might be something about her. But in her ever increasing appearences I just get the author's voice congratulating himself about the tricky-trickster plot, some shallow predatory cougar stuff and a few tears thrown in here and there about Amy-Mum. She's just too damn smugly annoying.
These twin failures are to some extent counterbalanced by Smith's excellent work as the Doctor and Arthur Davill's brilliant work as Rory. Smith can really sell almost anything and he is never anything less than alien. And his words carry weight, no matter how shoehorned they may be. Arthur as Rory pretty much knocks it out the park each time, and his scene with the matches was brilliant for the way he played the horror. It's his mix of vulnerability, groundedness and heroism mixed with every-man that makes him such a satisfying character. I'll be sorry that he's gone.
But they way it was done... ach. I buy the concept but the execution was just so flawed. They've been rescued so many times from paradoxes, death and the past that it's hard to accept it as much of a hindrance in the space of a few minutes. If the episode had shown us reality breaking under the paradox, of New York close to shattering... if we'd seen in silent montage the Doctor getting off the Tardis and walking to New York only to find him suddenly reappearing elsewhere in time and space back in the Tardis, clearly being unable to reach them and it tearing him up and also showing Amy and Rory unable to get out the borders of the city, if it'd shown us a handful of ways in which this was final- perhaps all of the shots clearly being registered in the Doctor's thoughts as he frantically in a few moments in the graveyard realises that shit, this is it, then it would have more impact.
Instead we get the equivilent of this:
When I think of all the devestating goodbyes in Buffy that Whedon wrote, even for minor characters like Jenny Calendar, I'm baffled at why people are raving that this partially deriative romp is getting such great reviews across the board. But maybe I'm just broken and wrong.
So it just looks like American writers can do emotional sci-fi, it's just that we Brits can't.
I enjoyed the episode, though I certainly agree with more than one of the points raised in this thread... 'specially about the statue of liberty, how silly!
My main gripe was that time i.e. 1938 gets treated like a 'place' a lot. The Doctor says that temporal interference stops you time travelling there any more... so what's wrong with going back like one year more, and spending 1 of your many timelord years waiting?!
And the paradox... seeing someone's grave is not proof conclusive that they are dead - an easily avoidable paradox for the 'Doctor in a Doctor suit' of last season's finale!
Aand I'm done.
_________________
Kern wrote:
I really need to put some money on Zeppo being the next Dr Who.
Plot holes in Doctor Who are like pulling out the plastic sticks in a game of Kerplunk. You can race through any number of them without it mattering, then suddenly you pass one more and the whole lot comes crashing down.
NervousPete wrote:
Rory dying, three times in one episode? And while the Statue of Liberty is a neat motif (and I imagine the Angels on some level simply inhabit chosen inanimate sculptures like a crab in a shell) are we to believe that at no point there was at least one New Yorker looking at it?
The Doctor even bloody says "the city that never sleeps! Perfect for the Angels!" Perfect for A CRITTER THAT CAN'T MOVE WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT? I'd say "the city that sleeps regularly from 10pm to 7am" would be FAR MORE PERFECT MR MOFFAT.
Quote:
"We can't go back!" Oh, all right then. Er, what about going to Washington and then hopping on a train? "They're stuck there forever! Noes!" What?
"Hey, let's go to Boston in 1939 and catch a train to New York. They'll just be a year older. It'll be cool." "STUCK FOREVER." "OK, we go to England in 1937 and send them a letter to be held for a year, which might or might not be delivered in a rainstorm by a mysterious law clerk. The letter says 'see you in San Francisco in 1940.' And then we meet them. Simple!" "NOES." "OK, I have this thingy on my wrist that doesn't get caught in the time eddies, I'll just..." "NO! The deus ex machina demands it!"
706. Written by Steven Moffat. Directed by Colm McCarthy. (Filming now) 707. Written by Neil Cross. Directed by Farren Blackburn. (Not filmed) 708. Written by Mark Gatiss. Directed by Douglas Mackinnon. (Filmed) 709. Written by Neil Cross. Directed by Jamie Payne. (Filmed) 710. Written by Stephen Thompson. Directed by Mat King. (Filmed) 711. Written by Mark Gatiss. Directed by Saul Metzstein. (Filmed) 712. Written by Neil Gaiman. Directed by Stephen Wolfenden. (Not filmed) 713. Written by Steven Moffat. Directed by TBA. (Not filmed)
Joined: 30th Mar, 2008 Posts: 17099 Location: Parts unknown
I don't suppose anyone knows where I can get a copy of Genesis of the Daleks?
I have one in (My legal download service-ed) at the moment but it's been there for weeks and hasn't moved. I've seen it on eBay but I'd rather not pay for it as I'm clearing out my DVDs at the moment and I don't need anymore in there.
I don't suppose anyone knows where I can get a copy of Genesis of the Daleks?
I have one in (My legal download service-ed) at the moment but it's been there for weeks and hasn't moved. I've seen it on eBay but I'd rather not pay for it as I'm clearing out my DVDs at the moment and I don't need anymore in there.
There were a few massive torrents of Dr Who on Demonoid before it went bang - those might be on a few other sites but i cant really look while i'm at work - however if you cant find it I can probably send you one (assuming you still have something that will read a dvd)
The Doctor will come face-to-face with some old enemies…
We can confirm that the Cybermen will be menacing the universe once again when Doctor Who returns for a run of eight epic episodes in spring, 2013.The iconic enemies will feature in an adventure directed by Stephen Woolfenden and written by the acclaimed Neil Gaiman whose previous episode was the Hugo Award-winning, The Doctor’s Wife.
Starring Matt Smith as the Doctor and Jenna-Louise Coleman as the new companion, the episode co-stars Warwick Davis (Life’s Too Short and Harry Potter), Tamzin Outhwaite (EastEnders and Hotel Babylon) and Jason Watkins (Being Human and Lark Rise to Candleford) as a band of misfits on a mysterious planet…
Steven Moffat, Lead Writer and Executive Producer, told us, ‘Cybermen were always the monsters that scared me the most! Not just because they were an awesome military force, but because sometimes they could be sleek and silver and right behind you without you even knowing. ’ He added, ‘And with one of the all-time classic monsters returning, and a script from one of our finest novelists, it's no surprise we have attracted such stellar names as Tamzin, Jason and Warwick.’
You can check out Cyber-galleries and enjoy clips from Cyberman stories in their very own Cyber-section or revisit Neil Gaiman’s previous Doctor Who adventure by watching interviews with the writer and clips from The Doctor’s Wife.
The Cybermen last appeared in 2011’s Closing Time but debuted in 1966 opposite William Hartnell’s Doctor in the classic The Tenth Planet. Over the years they have proven constant in their attempts to terrorise the Time Lord, invade our planet and destroy humanity… Secrecy surrounds all future adventures but we can’t wait to find out more about the Cybermen’s latest deadly gambit!
Doctor Who returns on December 25th for the Christmas Special and is back for a run of eight episodes in spring, 2013.
There was something strangely satisfying about one of my American friends posting 'don't blame me-I voted Saxon' on Twitter and sinister Facebook today.
Just watched 'Love and Monsters' for the first time in six years or so. I agree with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named: it is a fantastic piece of storytelling.
Re-watching it after a few weeks' worth of Jimmy Savile news, I was struck by the sense of unreliable narration and it's perfectly possible for the events in the episode all have existed in Elton's mind, as he uses his obsession with the Doctor to cover for some horrific abuse caused by the real and non-absorbing Victor Kennedy. But, that's probably too much analysis for what is, on the whole, a celebration of the joys of friendship. And a cheap blow-job gag.
Doctor Who 50th Anniversary: 49 Ways The BBC Could Celebrate
In exactly a year’s time, the BBC will be celebrating the Doctor Who’s 50th Anniversary. But how exactly should the Corporation celebrate? We’re not talking in terms of plot here – no demands for The Time War or “The 50 Doctors” – but what else the BBC could do to mark this momentous occasion for Doctor Who?
Let’s take our lead from something all-too-brief BBC DG George Entwistle said when he got the job. He said it should be an occasion like the Olympics. Although we sincerely doubt we’ll be seeing hours and hours of Doctor Who on BBC1 for two weeks – hell, it’s a big show, but not that big as much as we’d like it to be – we get where he was coming from. A media blitz across all BBC platforms – the TV channels, radio, internet, iPlayer, the red button service.
So, Mr Tony Hall, new BBC Director General, please inherit Entwistle’s enthusiasm for the show, and here are a few suggestions. Well, 49 actually. It seems fitting. Some more serious than others… (and yeah, we know there’s the drama-documentary being made about the show’s early years; these are new suggestions):
1 iPlayer should make every complete Doctor Who story in the archives available.
2 Strictly Come Dancing should have a Doctor Who special, with all the celebs dressed as monsters dancing to Doctorin’ The TARDIS.
3 BBC Four should have an in-depth documentary about the history of the series.
4 The front page of the BBC website should pop up accompanied by the TARDIS dematerialisation sound effect.
5 Tom Baker should do The Shipping Forecast.
6 Steven Moffat should present Thought For The Day.
7 The TARDIS should be on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar square.
8 EastEnders should have a discussion in the Queen Vic about the best Doctor.
9 Russell T Davies should write a half-hour “Rose Tyler: Defender Of Earth” episode, featuring as many surviving companions as possible.
10 The BBC idents should feature Daleks. Lots of ’em.
11 All male newsreaders should wear bow ties; the women can wear fezes.
12 TARDIS replicas should appear all over London, painted in designs by volunteers and famous artists, then be auctioned off for charity.
13 All continuity announcement should be done in the voice of Davros.
14 The time pips on Radio Four should be replaced by the Sonic Screwdriver sound effect.
15 A Top Gear Doctor Who Special. Hammond test drives the TARDIS, James May does the science, Clarkson slags off the show and gets beaten up by Colin Baker.
16 A TARDIS hunt – The TARDIS appears mysteriously in the background of a dozen or so BBC produced shows across the anniversary week. No prior warning – viewers have got to spot it, a bit like like Where’s Wally.
17 At least one of the stories missing from the archives is remade from the original script.
18 A different one of the stories missing from the archives is remade as an animated adventure.
19 Newsnight should bring together Michael Grade and Colin Baker for a fight… no-holds-barred discussion.
20 A special edition of Only Connect featuring only Doctor Who fans and Doctor Who questions.
21 An Antiques Roadshow special concentrating entirely on Doctor Who merchandise.
22 Matt Smith should edit that week’s 2000 AD instead of Matt Smith.
23 There should be a Doctor Who computer game which doesn’t suck.
24 The Angel Of The North should become a Weeping Angel Of The North.
25 Cardiff should be renamed Gallifrey for the week (unless Gallifrey means something rude in Welsh…)
26 The Beefeaters at the Tower Of London should be replaced by Cybermen.
27 Peter Jackson should be interviewed on The Culture Show about his love for Doctor Who.
28 Tom Baker should be knighted.
29 Google should of course have a Doctor Who logo on 23 November (wonder if they will?).
30 Wembley should stage a game of football between monsters.
31 Doctor Who Do You Think You Are? – a look at the science fiction that influenced Doctor Who, and the science fiction it has influenced.
32 Matt Smith to join Brian Cox and Robin Ince on an Infinite Monkey Cage special about time travel.
33 Songs Of Praise should come live from Devil’s End.
34 A Red Button service that enables the 50th Anniversary special to be watched with a commentary track.
35 A new online animated adventure that has a role for all eleven Doctors.
36 Mock The Entirety Of Time And Space – a Who related Mock The Week special with Sylvester McCoy and Paul McGann.
37 A specially-filmed McGann to Eccleston regeneration scene.
38 Jools Holland Later special, with Muse covering “Doctorin’ The TARDIS”, One Direction singing “All I Want For Christmas Is A Dalek” and Tom Jones doing “Song For 10”.
39 A Deadly 60 special with Steve Backshall encountering Drashigs, the Nestene Consciousness, wolf weeds and giant maggots.
40 The BBC should name one of its new studios after Verity Lambert.
41 When BBC Three and BBC Four aren’t on air, they should just air Doctor Who constantly.
42 Just for balance, there should be a show called I Hate Doctor Who. On BBC Radio Stoke. At 2am. For a couple of minutes.
43 Masterchef should have a special episode in which John Simm, Eric Roberts and Derek Jacobi try to out cook each other.
44 Bargain Hunt should take place in Trotter’s Lane.
45 K9 should cameo in Doctors. Just because.
46 Mark Gatiss should write a half-hour sitcom about some Doctor Who fans trying to arrange a convention, just so they can get to meet Billie Piper.
47 There should be a set of Doctor Who commemorative stamps.
48 Get some of the mainstays of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop back together to compose an avant garde Doctor Who-inspired electronic symphony for broadcast on Radio Three.
49 Someone should bake a really nice cake with 50 sonic screwdriver-shaped candles on it and not let Matt Smith hide inside.
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