So, I am waiting for a special delivery item to arrive, before 1pm. Time is creeping onwards and onwards. Nearly half past twelve. Just tried to track the delivery number online, and, surprise surprise - it has been delivered, though of course it hasn't. Or if it has, not to me.

I just phoned up Royal Mail and they simply say 'it has been delivered', or 'it shows on our system that it has been delivered'. Do they have a signature to show that it has been delivered because I would like to see it. 'No'.

Anyway, it is something I really need and I am beyond fed up and so if you see me on the news later for blowing up several Postmen with a bomb made of fairy liquid and tea then don't be surprised.

I'd suggest using a motorcycle courier as they can get through the gaps in the traffic in hyper fast time in extreme danger and get you the goods.

unless you ordered a new bed.

From Lancaster?

A couple of years ago I was waiting for a christmas present for my brother to be delivered. I used to take a calculated risk that I wouldn't be at home as I'd be at work, but I could collect the attempted delivery card and then arrange to pick it up at the depot. I don't like to do this any more as they've moved the Parcel Force depot to the opposite side of Birmingham as opposed to the reasonably central location it used to be.
Anyway, having got home from work, there was no card. I went to track it online and saw that it had been delivered, and I could even see the signature, absolutely no idea who it belonged to and didn't recognise the surname from any of my neighbours. Couldn't do much about it except see if someone brought it round before I started shouting at Parcel Force.
Fortunately, it was brought round the next day, Amazon, in their infinite wisdom, had happily slapped an address label on the package which was missing the entire first row of characters, so the first number of my house wasn't on the label and it had been delivered to the other end of the road.

Not too sure why I've bothered telling you all this, but you might want to bear it in mind before you blow up any postmen.

UPDATE:

Just had a call. The postman returned from his rounds with it - never got to finish the round as he got lost, tried to deliver it to two other people about quarter of a mile away, so signed for it himself in my name and bought it back to the depot with him.

They said they couldn't re-deliver for two days so I got a little angry and now they are sending a man around in a car to bring it here to me as I accused them of fraud for signing for something in my name to confirm that a service had been provided when it hadn't.

This is the first time that anyone from Royal Mail has ever gotten back to me with a satisfactory conclusion (actually, shouldn't hold my breath, it isn't actually here yet...). See, this has happened three or four times before - postmen signing for my items and them either arriving a week or so later or never turning up at all on two occasions.

I have our postal service. I am going to help Monkey set up 'Monkey Mail', where postmonkeys on bicycles bring you your mail and never steal your stuff...

Joans, I won't blow up any Birmingham postmen.

The ones around this part of London are just beyond crap, though. Lancaster's postmen are wonderful. I think they just offer a post worker's job around here to anyone who gets released from Belmarsh and Wormwood Scrubs.

I still recommenced you blow something up with tea and washing up liquid. It'll help relieve the stress.

I shall blow up the collection of remote controls that I have somehow amassed since the age of about 13 for appliances that are long since gone.

Good on you!

I think I just got fed up because I have heard the story so many times - they have signed for things in my name before, so it just made me feel so fed up, but I have it now (it was the power cable for my laptop which I couldn't afford to replace (£70!) so I am happy that it's been sorted now and that I stood up for myself for a change (as I am not very good at asserting myself on the phone, usually).

christ! what sort of laptop was it?

It's a Mac, and yeah, those farking MagSafe power adaptors are bloody expensive.

Good on you Meems, it's a miracle to get anything out of the post office these days. They still haven't responded to my complaint about stolen post, and no doubt they never will. They keep 'closing' the incident without it being resolved. Cunning way of reducing complaints! Don't resolve them, just close them!

We had an incident recently where our package was 'signed' for, and actually on inspection the signature said 'back door', except it wasn't our back door, it was a neighbours back door. Only we don't know which neighbour, because we live in the kind of place where if companies deliver things to neighbours instead, the neighbours keep them and never tell you and then deny all knowledge. So we complained, the company we bought from sent us out more stuff and the delivery driver got a bollocking for being a wanker.

For those of you paying attention to my 'Shredder' thread of a few weeks ago, I never got my shredder, as Viking Direct used DHL who refused to use my delivery bin (WHICH I'D BOUGHT FROM VIKING FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF RECEIVING DELIVERIES SECURELY WHEN I'M NOT IN) and tried to make me pick up my item from the depot. On discovering they wouldn't deliver without a signature, I agreed to leave a note on my door on the day they agreed to re-deliver.

Except they didn't redeliver, they forgot. So I rang Viking up in a fume and cancelled the order, got my money back, and told them to use a delivery company that wasn't so manifestly incompetant and shit next time. Viking also couldn't quite see the irony that they couldn't deliver to the delivery bin I'D BOUGHT FROM THEM for that exact purpose. Hnnnnng.

I would have thought them signing for the package is probably enough for the person in question to get the boot. That said, although our postal service hasn't quite descended to US-levels of mediocrity, it's well on the way. Our depot's current thinking is to try and shove Amazon packages through the letterbox. When it's clear they don't fit, the postie doesn't ring the doorbell—they just continue trying to shove the package through.

Last time I caught one doing this, I opened the door and was practically snarled at. "It doesn't fit through," I was helpfully informed. I suggested that perhaps the postie should ring the doorbell next time, then, at which point he barked "YEAH, ALRIGHT, MATE!" at me, and proceeded to storm off. I noted that the item was now battered, and he yelled "It's only packaging" (luckily, in this case, the item wasn't damaged, but stuff has been recently), and my saying (quite loudly by this time, obv.) that this wasn't the point was met with a clearly audible "WANKER!" as he turned the corner. Nice. Needless to say that I'll likely get little or no response from Royal Mail about this, despite writing yet another sodding letter of complaint. Gnh.

My postie was pretty good especially since when I had a job I was getting 3-7 parcels a week for him to deliver, without any grumbles aswell.

When I first called Customer Services this morning saying that it said it had been signed for early this morning the guy n the phone said that Delivery offices and postmen often signed for items at the start of their round if they didn't think they were going to complete the round in time, which rather makes a mockery of their Special Delivery service. He told me this to make it clear that I should not worry, the item may not have been delivered to the wrong address or pinched by the delivery man. I don't want to sound like I feel over the top about this, but I can't help but feel like it is a complete joke.

My brother is a Doctor, and does something similar - he signs a load of death certificates at the start of the day in case he doesn't get round to visiting all the intensive care beds on his round.

Top banana.

They probably won't get it.

My response there would be "then, presumably, you'll be giving me my item and a partial refund for the service you didn't meet?"

Mind you, knowing my local delivery office, they'll probably come round here and jam shit in my letterbox.

You can't when you are receiving things because you don't have a contract with the courier firm, whoever they may be, but only with the seller. If I ever came home and found the Royal Mail had signed for a parcel themselves then hidden it behind the bin or somesuch, I'd get on the phone to whoever I bought it off and report it as not received. This ultimately hits the Royal Mail where it hurts i.e. in the wallet and is hence the only real thing you can do.

moral dilemma there chap - what if the seller hasn't got a certificate of postage (assuming its not recorded) or other proof of postage? Do you screw him over, knowing he won't get a refund from RM? That won't help in the fight against RM at all

It wasn't something I was receiving from a company I had purchased off - it was sent by Craig, via special delivery.

The didn't deliver the item within the set time of the contract purchase via special delivery (which states delivery before 1pm or you can claim compensation) so Craig is entitled to claim compensation for the late delivery. Whether they actually honour that is another question, though.

CUS - I'd suggest it was the seller's responsibility to get proof of postage. If you, as a buyer, haven't received your item then why should you be out of pocket? That's in the case of a lost item - if it is simply a case of delayed delivery by a few days than you are not entitled to compensation unless it was Special Delivery, in which case the sender would have proof anyway.

Don't confuse me with CUS woman!

But my point was, do you say you didn't get it when you really did, just to get back at Royal Mail? Because it's not really the seller's fault RM at shit. It's a bit mean for him to lose out on a technicality, if you really did get it in the end.

There she is! GAAAAAH!

Oh - I see what you mean. Sorry - I didn't realise that you were responding to Richard above (and sorry for mis-reading the name I was quoting, too). Well, yes - morally that would hit the seller, though the seller could in turn claim back from Royal Mail, even for an unregistered service with no proof of postage* so it would eventually hit Royal Mail. Richard though said he'd do this of Royal Mail signed for a parcel in his name - so the seller would have proof of postage and could indeed claim. If you contacted the sender and asked them to push for compensation then it would be Royal mail that ended up shouldering the blame.

*up to 100x the current price of a 1st class stamp, however much that is now.

Sorry m'dear, you definitely need a certificate of postage, either a receipt with the postcodes filled in, or a seperate certificate, or you've got no look in for compensation, otherwise you'd get mentalists claiming compensation for letters never sent.

Yes, I take your point CG and I wouldn't screw over a small ebay seller or somesuch in this manner. But as far as I'm concerned if a big firm like Amazon chooses to use a bunch of retarded cockmonkeys like Royal Mail, HDNL, Shittylink or Parcel Farce then I will make them pay for the courier's mistakes. In the clear-cut case where the courier has signed for something you are supposed to receive the retailer is always going to take it back out of the courier's hide.

Mimi -- Craig should definitely file a complaint, he's clearly entitled to compensation and you have a solid paper trail to prove it.

Well, fair enough, but at the same time, what's the alternative for someone like Amazon? You can either send via Royal Mail for relatively little, or use a courier every time and charge the customer more, so I suppose it's really a question of what you'd rather; cheap postage with a fair possibility of loss, or a more guaranteed courier for which you'll pay through the nose?

I guess the line I draw is between the occasional genuine accident (e.g. parcel eaten by sorting OMNOMNOM machine) and total outright fuckwitted manouvers like faking the customers signature. I find the former annoying but understandable, and the latter utterly infuriating.

Signing for a package at the start of the round is simple, pure, fraud.

I'll double check the definition but I think fraud requires the perpetrator to be making (or trying to make) some sort of monetary gain for himself.

He's representing the company who ARE making monetary gain (namely avoiding the need to refund you for lack of meeting guaranteed delivery time).

I'm pretty sure that for fraud you have to intend for that monetary gain, though. The delivery boke's motiviation isn't making more money for the company, it's laziness.

What if it were a company mandated action? Could you somehow hold the company as a whole guilty of fraud?

I think it's similar to with manslaughter - there has to be a "controlling mind" of a sufficiently senior status who is responsible. That's the problem with companies - they're a "legal person", but they're not "natural persons" like you or I (but not Craster), so they can't form the necessary "guilty mind" aspect of a crime* without having, as it were, a mind of their own. That's where the controlling mind fudge comes in. The board of directors or other senior management near that level determine what the company, as a whole, does, so they're substituted for the brain. However, it means they basically need to have had direct knowledge of the specific thing you're trying to charge them with.

I'm not entirely up on exactly how it works with fraud rather htan manslaughter (had to look into that a while ago), but I can't think of a single example of where a company itself has been convicted of fraud.

HOWEVER - if the MD of royal mail sent out a memo to all posties telling them to forge signatures to save on refund costs, yeah, that'd be fraud. But they'd probably just do the MD for it, rather than the company.

*Except for strict liabiltiy crimes, most crimes require you to have (a) done something and (b) intended to do it

But they have done something. They claim via forging my signature to have carried out a service (ie, delivering the item before 1pm) which they did not carry out. Craig paid for a service which they did not provide, but fraudulently provided proof for by signing in my name.

Why does attempted murder exist, anyway? I shoot a gun at you and get a reduced sentence because I miss? Why does the legal system reward this incompetence?

It's the "they" that trips this up, though. The "they" in this instance was a lazy posty, not the company itself. The company isn't its employees, and so unless it directs its employees to forge signatures (or is aware of it and doesn't stop it) the company has done nothing wrong. And the posty hasn't committed "fraud" as he hasn't done anything for his personal monetary gain or with the intention of making a monetary gain for the company.

Sorry, Meems, but rather than being a cirminal issue this is just one of lazy, incompetent staff. Isn't there a "Postwatch" regulator that could get interested in this sort of thing?

Because they'd far rather that you missed?

If I mess up at my job and break the FSA regulations, it is my company who get hacked to pieces and fined massively by the regulator. Whilst this sort of agrees with what you said, it means that there'd be a case for action against the mail service, as they are responsible for the behaviour of their employees.

Either way, if Craig complains, he is bound to get some form of monetary compensation, even if it is just his postage costs back.

EDIT - Also, if the guy said they do this a lot, it's clearly a practice accepted by the company, ergo they are to blame.

What about forgery? Surely the postie is guilty of that?

I did mention before that when I phoned up to enquire about this I was told that signing for packages at the beginning of a round was quite a common practice - that they did it in case they didn't finish the round on time. He didn't say that they condoned this, but he didn't say otherwise, either. he said it wasn't exactly great for the customer, but... I supposed he gets paid to do his job, and he isn't actually doing his job but forging people's signatures to falsely prove that he has performed the tasks laid out by the job.

I don't think it is a criminal matter, I wouldn't have the time nor energy to do anything about it if it was - I have my item now, so at least that's something. I will encourage Craig to claim for the Recorded delivery compensation, though - he had a contract that they'd deliver it prior to 1pm, they did not, he's entitled to his money back.

Postwatch are useless. I had a terrible, terrible bout of post theft one year. I never received any birthday cards (boo-hoo) until about New Year when 17 slit open cards found their way to my door. I got nowhere with the sorting office, no apology or anything. I eventually contacted postwatch and after about a month I got a letter saying that they'd passed my letter on to the sorting office, even though I contacted postwatch to explain that the sorting office refused to deal with the matter.

The gargantuan FSA Rules are a different kettle of fish though, and (from memory) specifically state that authorised firms are responsible for X Y and Z, including certain acts of their employees. The criminal law on fraud is somewhat less specific.



I'm not sure that's a crime in and of itself, though. My criminal law textbook is at home so I can't check righ tnow. Google me do, perhaps.

Cor, well, you've had a shitty time of it with them, haven't you? Sorry, mate.

I'd definitely claim for the Recorded compensation tohugh. And a letter to the relevant chap's manager might be a good way to get the posty in trouble?

Saving money is making money.



Yes potentially but more likely just fined under some other law.



Yes it is, which is why maintenance company bosses were found guilty of manslaughter after train crashes despite the fact they certainly didn't fit faulty track pieces themselves.

Absolutely, but that was down to a policy that neglected essential safety maintenance. As Mr Chris said earlier, if you could demonstrate that Royal Mail had a policy of telling their employees to fill out the cards themselves, you'd have a case. Otherwise the postie is acting on his own initiative.

If the company knows about the practice and does nothing to stop it, then that is collusion (or similar).

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that that's the posty's motivaiton. Unless he intends to save the company money you don't even have the beginnings of a fraud case against him.