Be Excellent To Each Other

sploonderbar.

http://mods.xkill.net/making/Millenium_ ... index.html

PS2 port... on the FRONT?

All hope is lost!

*runs away singing the Bolivian entry for the 1996 South American Hate Crime Song Contest. Backwards. In Latin*

But that would be like expecting the world cup to be played 5 aside, or F1 done with Street Legal cars. "proper" FPS is fast and twitchy and you need the control and Snappiness to be there, without it, it's like running through treacle, yeah everyone has the same problem, but why would you want to?

Malc

I tried to play half life on the PS2 once.

Rubbish. FPS is a spectrum in which there are lots of different types of games.

Using your car analogy, it'd be like racing an F1 car against a rally car: on tarmac (precise controls), the F1 car is better, but on loose surfaces such as gravel or mud (control pad), the rally car is better.

It says a lot that these days, most FPS games are developed for consoles and ported over to PC later. The best FPS games on PC are the ones that are either exclusive to the platform, or developed on it primarily.

No no no you want the xbox version :

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/02/02/xb ... y-mil.html

Youtube video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwcFfB2cnA

or :

http://www.vidilife.com/index.cfm?f=med ... 5F4-8DC2-3

yes, hence my "proper" in the sense of Doom, Quake (and even Marathon on the Mac)

Malc

But it's only 'proper' because you think that's proper.

it's proper because it was first.

Malc

Well, it's like comparing Men football to Women. Although no one argues what is more competitive, women can be having as much fun as men playing it (or even more)

Doom was earlier, and had no mouse support...? Does that make Quake/UT not-proper?

Wolfenstein 3D was before that. Does that make Doom not-proper? Does the fact the Model "T" Ford came out before the Mustang make the Mustang a not-proper car?

You're talking pure guff.

but it did have mouse support...

Malc

Did it? It certainly didn't have mouselook, that was added in later hacks to the Doom engine after id released it. It might have had mouse move (left/right turned you, up/down moved you forwards/back) but that was rightly ignored as being hideous.

Any way you're missing the point here a bit. Those games had a "feel" about them, I could add SiN, Half Life, Heretic, Hexen, Even Star Trek Elite Force. They all allowed a free flowing attacking "arcadey" feel to them, they weren't realistic, there were fun fun fun. And if you could maximise your movement speed, and your snap aiming you would be very good. Those to me are "proper" (now yes, I'm not being 100% serious there, but you should be able to pick up what I mean) FPS games.

Malc

Apart from the people who were winning all the tournaments...

Malc

What? What did they do when the reached the top of the mouse mat, stop moving while they picked the mouse up and moved it back to the middle of the pad? I cannot believe that's better than playing on keyboard. Or did they remap mouse to look/fire and use forward/back on the keyboard?

I've googled but I can't find any citations for mouse support in the original Doom engine. Plenty in the remakes of course.

I'm not missing the point at all, I know exactly which types of game you mean and what about them you are referring to. It's just that the word 'proper' implies a value judgement - which is entirely subjective, particularly from you given your history with the games.

The "proper" was put in quotes to show that it was my interpretation of what proper meant. Just like a serious mountain climber might call Everest a proper mountain, when someone was talking about climbing Ben Nevis. Or a Real Ale drinker, when talking to some one ordering a pint of Stella at the bar might say something like: "Get your self a proper drink, like mine!" I am in no way saying that the FPS that I like are better than any other type of FPS but to me they are "proper". Note, I do not think they are proper, but they (to me) "proper".

Malc

I couldn't stand playing with the mouse in doom (and even when it came to Quake, initially I used keys, I was perhaps the best in the UK on keyboard at the time - mostly cos everyone that was really good was playing with the mouse), but I found out that ALL the top players in the US used to use it, and I know, personally, several people who used it to great effect in the UK.

I cannot remember the limitations that doom placed on mouse use, but I know it was limited far more than quake was, and I know that "the best" people used it.

Malc

I'm glad we had this little chat

Well I'm currently restoring HL2 through Steam so that's my night sorted. I did reinstall Far Cry 2 but within minutes of loading my save game the gun jams started happening left and right and I got really fucking annoyed by it.

That game has blown it's chance with me now. I'm going to uninstall it and send it to the 'archives' (Hint - The bin).

The game engine is fucking awful. One of the reasons I will continue to complete HL2 and Ep 2 in faster and faster times, because it just feels right.

BTW. Those who have been saying that games of that ilk can be controlled properly using a controller.. Please, wind in your necks.

It just doesn't happen like that. On games like FO3 it's actually better I agree. But then have you ever tried to accurately kill anything without using VATS?

A mate of mine got 30% through FO3 without even realising there was a VATS using the keyboard and mouse. Headshots FTW.

There is just no way to quickly and accurately aim in FO3 for the quick kill headshots without missing horribly using the controller. You have so much more control over an entire hand and wrist than you do with one thumb. Sorry, but it's just true.

PC's might end up only having FPS and stuff (and who can forget that WOW and those games just wouldn't work very well on a console) but they'll still remain. And when games like that are your choice then tbh you only really have one choice. I've been side tracked before by my NGC and XBOX with games like burnout, but I always come running back for that 'one more' playthrough of half life or blue shift etc.

Why could you not play WoW on an xbox?

Is it not the same as using live, like you dudes do?

edit.. can you get a mouse and keyboard for the xbox, out of interest?

Mouse support in Doom was always there, and always perfectly usable -

You'd set the vertical sensitivity to 0, thereby removing the mouse as the walk control, assign keys to walk/strafe in the same way you would quake.

It worked very well, I certainly used it as such before the source code was leaked.

I think what Malc is saying about 'proper' FPSs is that they are games which focus alot more on movement than later FPSs do. The ability to move round a quake/UT style game is leagues ahead of a more typical modern FPS, and creates a completely different game.

Any USB keyboard will work on a 360, but no games come with controls through them -AFAIK it would be allowed, but only if a keyboard wasn't required. However, things with mouse control, if hacked in, wouldn't pass certification.

Perhaps we are saying that because we can - I've played HalfLife 2, plus Episode 1 and 2 through with a controller, I've played plenty of UTIII. Both fundamentally PC FPS games, both with no problems with using a controller. You'd be surprised how good you can get with years of practice.

You'd also be quite surprised how much more complicated controller code tends to be than what you think it is.

ddfgdfgfdg

I find that people who say that FPSes can't be played properly with a controller are those who can't play FPSes properly with a controller.

Those who haven't, mainly. Whereas nearly everyone else on here has played hundreds of hours on both and so are actually qualified to comment.

I'm a spacker on both.

I have never tried FPS with a controller, but I am willing to try.

I found it one of those "easy to learn, hard to master" type things. Like getting away with (SNIP! - legal Ed), but it's all good.

Although, if I ended up being acebest at either, I would begin to question my priorities.

I do find it easier to use a controler on my PC for certain games. The lego games spring to mind.

Some games, certainly.

Not wanting to re-ignite the 'invert-y' discussion, but before I discovered that you could do that, I was rubbish at all FPS games, mouse or joypad. It hurted ma brain, so it did.

Once I found the invert command I improved dramatically. The only thing that bugs me about joypad FPS is control intertia, when moving from say a 5 degree tilt to a 15 degree tilt causes the camera to lurch in that direction.

p.s. The sniper rifle in GTA4 still melts my head. For some reason the invert-y control doesn't feel right when sniping. Stupid spazzy brain!

I can happily play an FPS with either, but mouses are better suited. We can have a contest if you like - I've got Halo on 2 PC's - you come over and play on one using the 360 controller and I'll use the mouse on the other. Good luck!

That's the point though, there is no doubt that a mouse is easier to aim with but that doesn't necessarily make for a better game, it's irrelevant, the point is how well the difficulty is tuned to whatever controls you happen to be using. Would R-Type be better if you could move the ship around the screen at the speed of a mouse cursor?

Exactly - as long as you're on a level playing field, using a controller just makes for a game that plays differently, not a worse game.

Hmm, I'm not convinced. I love Gears of War on the 360, but playing it with a mouse was so much nicer.

Imagine if MS did an official style version of these

and defined keyboard and mouse only zones of Live. Best of both worlds?

Edit: Obv, the ps2 port wouldn't be needed

Only if they released Counter Strike for the 360. PC games have Live now, so perhaps the best of both worlds is already here.

Heh

I gave up with Quake Live after about half an hour because I was getting RSI in my left wrist. I use a keyboard and mouse for eight hours a day at work; there's no way I want to do that for hours on end when I get home.

I think we should chip in and buy John Coffey a 360 to see how he improves its performance and appearance.

Fine don't get me one

I don't doubt the mouse player would win, and Halo isn't even the most dramatically different game you could pick. You move quite slowly in Halo, biasing it in favour of the pad player. UT3 on the PS3 would be a better test, running the "+25% speed" mutator, with one player on pad and the other on mouse.

I cannot, however, figure out any comfortable way to use a keyboard and mouse whilst sat on my sofa (yes, there are lap desks and whatnot but come on, if I'm gaming, I'm slouching). And I don't want to sit at a desk when I'm gaming. Hence, pads.

This is why Microsoft will never permit mouse control of FPSs on the 360; the pad owners would feel unfairly disadvantaged. I don't want to be forced to sit at a desk, and I don't want to be forced to play on an unlevel playing field.

You can have the *shudder* pc-in-a-mac that JC made.

I don't want my eyes to bleed every day!!

They should combine a xbox into a PC with a sliding switch to select which one you're using. They could use a really cool name like... MEGA-PC!

I glue mice over my thumbsticks to get the best of both worlds.