Be Excellent To Each Other

Heating packed up on Sunday, so I called out British Gas for the 2nd time in 5 weeks.

Guy came yesterday, same one as before which was good as he understood the systems.
He told me that it needed a part, but there might be a problem……………..

By all accounts Honeywell provide the part, but not 2 rubber gaskets needed to fit the part. (Value 2p), it’s totally illegal to use the old gaskets, so that’s not an option either.
He left it by saying her would be round with the part this morning and we would see what the situation was re the gaskets.

Sure enough there were none with the part, so he calls Honeywell who tell him it’s down to the maker of the boiler to provide them. He then went on to show me the same parts for other boilers made by Honeywell that do have the gaskets.

So we call the boiler people, the boiler was last made in 1988 (something I’ve just learnt over the last 48 hours) So they have the gaskets on file but no part numbers
So British Gas will no fit the part without an approved gasket part number, so I have to get a new boiler!

I’m pretty happy in some ways, as our heating system is crap and has components everywhere, which under a more modern system could all be housed in the garage. It’s also forced our hand, we have be talking about doing this for 2 years, each winter we put up with shite heating then we forget all about it as the summer arrives.

But all for the sake of 2 gaskets!!

I bet you needed a third gasket after all that. We went through the pain of replacing our boiler two years ago - not fun.

asfish - Instead of using British Gas, why not call out an independent boiler repair company - maybe they could find the relevant gasket or could use something just as good that isn't subject to British Gas's red tape? (yet which is still 100% safe of course).

Alternatively, why not ask here:

http://www.diynot.com/forums/

There's some knowledgeable people there who may well be able to help if you post the relevant info along with your boiler make and model.

Thanks good site, not going to use BG, done a bit of browsing on them and boilers this morning, and its clear that they over charge by 50% or more.

Plan to use this issues as the kick up the arse I need to sort the heating out, its old and expensive to run

I reckon I'm going to need a new boiler soon as my current boiler is ages old and seems to throw air into the system.

What's involved with replacing the boiler? Is it just a matter of taking the old one off the wall and fitting a new one or do they have to get under floorboards and other such nonsense?

New boiler is messy but if you're swapping like for like with no new radiators, then no floorboards need to be disturbed.

Depending on where your boiler is in the house, of course.

It's currently in the dining room against an outside wall.

It's good that I won't need the flooring taking up as all the radiators seem fine... Just noisy.

I don't know, I think it'll be one of those jobs I keep putting off. Like Afish said, when the Summer comes, you forget about how crap it is.

It depends how different the inlets and outlets are, though likely "not enough to need significant plumbing."

We had ours done in June. Best decision we ever made.

Chances are the inlets/outlets are all different sizes. I've recently changed some taps in the bathroom and they were old imperial pipes mixed up with metric.

Still, worth thinking about for when I've got a space couple of quid.

Yeah, I can see that. We were daft enough to have ours done in August and it sucked.

I have the boiler in the kitchen in the corner of the units below the worktop. Bad position as it requires a large airbrick that lets cold air into the kitchen in winter.
The electrics pump and water tank are under the stairs, with 2 more tanks in the attic.

What I would like is all of it in the garage, the gas main in in there and as such is piped to the kitchen to feed the boiler.

My dad raves about a megaflow, which would tick all my boxes. You do need good water pressure for one of these, by best mate hates his megaflow as he doesn’t get the pressure

Hi asfish,

I was Corgi and then Gas safe registered, but have let both drop now as i have moved to a new area and just don't get enough gas work to warrant the cost to me (but thats another story). If your looking to update you system to a all singing all dancing Combi system then you can do away with the two tanks in the attic and the Hot water cylinder and controls in the airing cupboard upstairs. All will then be supplied by the Combi from the new location in the garage.

BG are very aggressive with the sales so you may get some 'threats' from them if you decide to go for a independant Gas Safe registered installer, in my time as a Gas Fitter we have had customers who have had the boiler maintenance contracts with BG being told that if they have it changed by someone other than them they won't carry on the cover. TBH you don't really want the cover for the first 2 years of a new boiler unless the pipework in the hose is suspect.

How old are the rads in your system?
When was the system last flushed out to clean it? (Don't let anyone talk you into a Powerflush without having a more gentle chemical clean done first as Powerflushes can cause problems with old systems)
What size is the pipework going to the rads? Normally 15 mm these days but some still use micro-bore (8mm or 10mm)
Does the pipework connection the rads go to both ends? If not you may have a issue.

I will stop wittering now but if you want any advice i am more than happy to help if i can.

SG

Ahh... Slightly Green, sorry to butt in but you might be able to help.

There's a lot of air getting into my heating system meaning that the upstairs radiators need bleeding a lot. They also make a hell of a noise when the heating comes on.

Any idea why this would be happening and what I can do to stop it? (Short of buying a new boiler)

Bloody hell! An expert!

Well not really, I'm only guessing it's air.. could be anything really.

We really should have a stickied thread with who knows things about what - would be incredibly useful.

Jam? Guacamole? The dissipated hopes and dreams of a lost generation?

It's most likely hydrogen, caused by corrosion in the metalwork of the system. Flush it and refill with a corrosion inhibitor.

Or, it could be drawing in air through a boiler vent pipe when the pump kicks in, depending on the layout of the system (i.e., wrong).

I gave up on gas after realising the whole industry is basically a protectionist, price-fixing scam hiding behind safety regulations. Heat-pumps and solar are the way forward

Why aren't boilers "smart" yet? Why isn't my boiler able to hook up to my wifi and log what it's doing? Why can't I control it via a web interface, or using my phone? Why can't rooms realise that they're too cold and request that their radiator turns on? Why doesn't my boiler learn what time I use a lot of hot water and prepare accordingly?

HUH?

The BG contract is the most basic one; I pay £3 a month and then pay £99 max per part and callout.
As for your questions!
• How old are the rads in your system? No idea realty, there are at least 3 different types and I would estimate that there are 10 plus years old. There is one that I replaced last year.
• When the system was last flushed out to clean it? Not been done whilst I’ve owned the house, drained it down last year to have thermostatic valves fitted on all the rads• What size is the pipework going to the rads? 15mm• Does the pipework connection the rads go to both ends? If not you may have a issue. As far as I can see yes


Big bone of contention with BG gas is that they could have done the repair, people on DIYNot tell me that its fine for a Corgi person to find some seals then do a boiler\gas test. All this stuff from BG re part numbers is rubbish.

On the other hand the heating system I have is rubbish and its really time I replaced it.

Have BG coming around for an overpriced quote, you could hear the disappointment in his voice when I told him I had no intention of signing with BG straight away. BG make me laugh they are offering a £400 saving at present (which is 2 years Homecare 200) when you buy a boiler. Why the hell would you need that on a new system?

My problem is I don’t know who to go to locally for a quote. I know a good local plumber who is ok for small jobs, but I doubt if he can get the time to do my big job all in one go, then you have BG a total rip off but they pick up the phone at least.

I will try that Kalmar, as I have noisy rad, that needs bleeding a lot....

You can get that, it's not functionality that would be built into the boiler, but the programmer (the timer thingy). It's fairly expensive, like Bill Gate's residence may apply, unless you hack it yourself though.

http://www.nest.com/

Don’t think they work in the UK, though.

That sounds expensive.. Great.

No, shouldn't be.

That sounds promising. Flushing the system... That's not something I can do myself is it?

If you can fit it in your toilet, yes.

or tell it embarrassing stories.

Precisely this happened to us last year, except it wouldn't just be a new boiler, it would have necessitated 2 new boilers and complete new plumbing. Four grand job. Thy offered to come and quote us for the job. Mentioned this to my neighbour, who asked told us to talk to a guy they knew at a local place where plumbers go for bits. Phoned them, they had one of the necessary seals, we bought it, phoned British gas, the guy came out and fitted it. Twenty quid, rather than going into four grand of debt which is probably what we'd have had to do. British Gas seem to love pulling this shit, scour the yellow pages, call all your mates to check for contacts, find the part, there's probably a bucket of them sat in some suppliers a mile down the road.

BG managed to snap the cover off the combustion chamber on my old boiler while servicing it and then decided it was far to old to be repaired safely. Of course they could fit a new one for just £4k....

I ended up having to wait about two months to get the work done by a local independent guy but it was half the cost so I didnt really have a choice. Everyone else was either booked that far in advance or asking stupid money.

Ask the plumber who he'd recommend.
Ask anyone you know that have had work done or had a breakdown.
Know any joiners, brickies, etc? Ask them.

Don't let BG do it as they're fannies, for the last few weeks I've been working for a gas/heating engineer* & without fail every time he works out a quote you get something like "Fucking hell, BG wanted more than double that!"
*Never got around to sticking that in the yay thread. I've somehow landed an apprenticeship. Handy since there's next to fuck all work for the likes of me offshore now. It's all the same sort of shit anyway, except for all the soldering & the not reeking of diesel.

I went to the Energy Saving Trust and found a plumber who lives 6 doors away from me.

The best bit is that he has worked on the plumbing in my house for the previous owner during the various building works.

He even serviced my boiler 16 years ago for another owner.

So he knows it all inside out, plan is to have him fix what I have then take some time to plan a new system.

BG isntalled my new boiler. I now know. Chalked it up to experience.

Would recommend to use a chemical cleanser in the system first (Sentinal X400 is a good one i have used previously, cost you around £15), if your feeling handy it is very easy to add to any system you just need to make sure of the basics, like isolating the radiator you are treating so you don't get water anywhere etc...

NOTE. If you have a Primatic Cylinder do not use Inhibitor or Chemical Cleanser. Primatic Cylinders will only be on very old installations and are no longer used in new DHW systems

If you want advice on how to do it let me know, but if your not confident working with tools and water then get a Plumber in to do it.

The Chemical cleanser stays in the system for a few weeks and you run the heating system for at least 1 hour per day (the chemicals work better at higher temperatures), this will help lift any magnetite sludge and other crud building up in the system and keeps it suspended in the liquid solution. Then you flush the system out properly to make sure the chemical is all gone.

When refilling the system add some good System Inhibitor (Sentinel X100, Fernox etc...) this will set you back another £12 or so, this helps stop any further build-up of crud and inhibits the corrosion of the system, you will need to bleed the rads a few times in the first couple of weeks after, as fresh water in any system will shed hydrogen due to the water being run through the impeller in the pump.

It is a very good idea to do this to 99% of heating systems every 3 years or so, helps keep them running as efficiently as possible.

Cool, that sounds like the best solution. I was going to suggest contacting a few of your local Plumbing merchants as they have lists of installers, and won't recommend anyone who is a total moron.

I want every room to have a wireless temperature sender, and every radiator a wireless valve, and a wireless control unit that I can talk to from my PC. And I want our phones to talk to them all too, so it can all track us round the house overriding the general rules ("never let the back bedroom go below 5C, raise it to 15C 6-9pm, unless I'm in there for more than ten minutes at any time, then 19C would be splend"). Although I suppose wireless IR senders would work for that too.

As someone said, tehre are firms that offer it. There were a few on the books on some of the VC funds. But I can't recall which. One of the ones liking green stuff, might have been Sequoia.

lol, i love the idea of someone hacking your heating system and turning your house into a fridge/hothouse, would be hilarious.

If you have Thermoststic valves on the rads in your house then you can balance the room temperatures that you are comfy with, and tbh manufacturers don't want people fucking with the factory set gas rates etc, they are calibrated these days to ramp up in the most efficient way possible. You can change all the setting if you have the manufacturers codes and the know how (and technicaly are a qualified Gas Safe registered installer as it is classed as working on the gas supply), the Gas Regulations would need to be changed. Although the fuckers change them every year as it is anyway, bastards.

With the actual thermostatic controls for the heating system you can get a app for it now, but you need to do a bit of wiring work on the control system. I think the company doing it is called heatmiser, but their website seems to be down at the moment.

Yeah I want a heating system that becomes obsolete every five years, needs rewiring to fit and costs £10,000 to fix when it breaks. I guess you can already get this sort of thing if you have a mansion or something can't you?

I don't want to mess with the boiler, I want it all on the wet side. We've got thermostatic valves. I've had them in several properties before. They don't work properly.

Besides, being controlled by an overall thermostat (I do want to replace it with a 7 day programmable job) in the hall with a non-thermostatic-valve rad makes them irrelevant.

You can get self contained electronic TRVs where you can set heating times and temperatures for each room, they're only £40 each or so. Not convinced there's much call for it to be honest, if your house is properly insulated anyway.

What if it's properly insulated and quite big?

So what is the "flush" that BG are always trying to push on you, that costs £600??

Then yes.

That.

I got that as well.

I think it's a power flush isn't it? A machine that you connect up to heating pipes in place of the boiler and it flushes water round really fast in different directions. You can hire them out and do it yourself for about £150 including the chemicals. I asked our gas man about it when we were getting our boiler changed. He was a bit skeptical having tried it a few times himself and been unconvinced of the benefit but we gave it a go anyway and a fair bit of sludge came out.

edit: actually I think it was much less than that, about £100 or so.

HSS hire them out for 95 quid a day, so I bet you can get them for less than that from a specialist place. I'd have a horrible fear of turning it on, and then finding that it's spurting gross rusty sludgey water all over my upstairs carpets or something.

I'm the same as Squirt. I just don't trust the heating in my house especially with all the noises it makes.

It'll be alright though, I'll just turn it off till the winter.