Pyramid Schemes

sdg · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 21:41

Recently, Jen and I were out in Glasgow and arranged to meet a guy she had been close friends with through uni but hadn't seen for about five four a few(?) years. She had noticed before we met him that he occassionally posted some weird conspiracy theory like videos on his Facebook page but she had never actually viewed these videos so wasn't really very certain about what his interest now were.
Anyway, we met him. As soon as we sat down, he started asking about Jen's job in the police. He seemed pleased that his friend was doing something she enjoyed and that we were beginning to (as a couple) find our careers or whatever, but there also seemed to be a bit of suspicion in his tone. Sure enough he started suddenly telling Jen that if a police officer asked for your name, you have no legal duty to supply it. We accepted this however he then went on to say that even if he was a witness to a serious crime he would not provide his details to police because this would mean he identified himself as a citizen of the UK. In his opinion, the UK is not a country, it is a corporation.

He continued to tell us that money is produced from thin air and waffled on for a while about economic conspiracies. Then he moved onto mortgages. According to him, when you are given a mortgage, you sign a bit of paper which is the mortgage. Your provider then sells this bit of paper to someone else. If you then went into the bank and refused to pay your mortgage until they provided proof that you owed it, they would have to admit they did not have this bit of paper and write off the mortgage. He said that if your mortgage is x amount of money, then your signature on the agreement becomes that x amount of money and is the payment. Apparently he is going to do this as soon as he has the money for a deposit. (I'm not sure if he's going to allow himself to be recognised as a citizen for this!)

Anyway, obviously by now Jen and I are not only staring in amazement at the stuff he is saying, I'm also shrinking into my chair a bit and hoping that no one at surrounding tables is listening to the stuff he is saying!

He used to be a really fun cool guy, who was always happy to have a drink and debate things, during which he would always appear to be very open minded and to look at all sides before making an informed decison. This doesn't seem to describe him any longer.

His latest thing is Ashmax. From what I can tell it looks like a pyramid scheme but he seems to have totally bought into it. We haven't seen him since we met for a drink (it ended with me giving him a lift home, during which Jen ended up having a huge argument with him and they haven't really spoken since) but he keeps inviting Jen to join this scheme. Can someone have a look at this site and its videos and explain to me how something like works?
I know it is not a good thing but if I were to attempt to share this with him I would prefer to have a bit of knowledge about it.

Also...any advice?!

shoesonwrong · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 21:59

I had an old friend from college call me up for a lunch date to catch up. We met and he spent the entire time talking about aliens and trying to sell me an expensive vacuum cleaner.

Also he wouldn't order anything because he was "fasting" but then he kept bumming onion rings off me.

Hope you find my irrelevant anecdote super helpful! Don't let him sell you a vacuum cleaner!

Zardoz · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 21:59

Sounds like you left off perfectly. Wack job.

MaliA · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 22:09

Zardoz wrote:

Sounds like you left off perfectly. Wack job.

This. Sounds like he's one of those people that base their ideals upon the idea that somebit of the US constitution was never amended. I can't recall the name now but stay away and sever contact. There's a reason why conspiracy nuts are often broke and lonely. I have to admit slight amusement at a Scot attempting to write off a mortgage, mind.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11864

Ashmax sounds great, I can't see any way it couldn't make money.

TheVision · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 22:38

Quote:

Ash(m-Ed)ax beta can help you tap into...

GUARANTEED FORCED SPILLOVER!!!

That's enough for me, where do I sign?

Seriously.. he sounds like a nut job and unfortunately, this world has it's fair share. I'd avoid him and be safe in the knowledge that he's never going to be richer, more popular or more successful than you.

zaphod79 · **Joined:** 16th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 14512

I love how the fact that they own and sell domains that a search for 'Ashmax' and scam or pyramid scheme just throws up pages of adverts to say 'i thought this was a scam but no i'm making my millions now!'

This page has a few quick useful answers on it

http://www.4networking.biz/forum/76/68961.htm

Specifically this post

Quote:

Terry, it's not a question of the kind of welcome. That is why we have a "Say Hello" forum. In this section you are coming to present a business opportunity to other members, so it is the opportunity that is under scrutiny, not Terry Welch. In your brief opening post, you highlighted various red flag warnings for MLM businesses.

Not least of those was a claim that the represented businesses are Fortune 500 companies, which is a pretty big claim when you realise just who makes up that particular list. The bottom company on that list, at position 500, is Blockbuster with an annual revenue of $4.12bn.

I have tried finding information on "Freeway 2 Success", but they almost seem not to exist. Hence, I have looked in more depth at Global Domains International (GDI). As you have stated, GDI were on the Inc 500 list at #37, but this is a very different list from Fortune 500! Fortune's list is about identifying the absolute biggest compaies in revenue terms. If you were in position 37 on Fortune, you would be just one place beneath Microsoft! Instead, the Inc 500 list measures growth over a 4 year period and, unsurprisingly, is usually occupied by new companies still in their rapid growth phase. GDI achieved position 37 on this list in 2002. The revenue that you state of $9.3m was in that year, not last year.

Remember, when you make claims for companies or products, you take on personal responsibility for those claims.

Then, looking at products:

F2S has no products of any use to man or beast. I can't see where it fits in the Ashmax equation.

GDI sell .ws domain names. This is known as a "domain hack". Ie, using the top level domain to give an impression of something else. Specifically, GDI market "WS" as meaning "Website". As Lee put it, ne.ws would be an interesting one. The WS top level domain actually belongs to Western Samoa and you can find the cuddly story of GDI here http://website.ws/about.dhtml In fairness to GDI, they appear to be a legitimate company, but it would seem that they may have lost their way. Considering they grew from zero to $9m in their first 4 years, why would they now be looking to MLM for their growth? Why is the world not already awash with .ws domains? The answer is that nobody wants them! How do I know? Well, they mention that Yahoo! have bought domains, yet http://www.yahoo.ws is a GDI site to advertise the income opportunity. Then consider ne.ws. This should be hugely lucrative and should by now be owned by CNN or suchlike. No, it is another GDI advertising site!

Finally, I come to the point that Lee has already made. You state that the products are not important, as you make your money from signing others up. That statement is one of the clearest definitions of a pyramid scheme and potentially renders it illegal. Why? because there are no product sales (beyond the selling of recruiting domains) it relies on a continual stream of new entrants to sustain itself and your income relies on their continued subscription. Even if you could get your 3,905 downline (which you won't), how do the 3,125 people on level 5 get their 9.7m downline? In turn, how do those 9.7m people get their 30 billion people to fill their downline? That's just 15 levels down from you and it already accounts for 5 times the world's population. Sooner or later the pyramid inevitably collapses. It always has and it always will.

Sorry, but No Product = Pyramid

Terry, we obviously don't know each other and I have no doubt that you are a good sort. However, I would seriously think again about Ashmax. It has all the hallmarks of a pyramid and I just cannot see that you will make either money or friends from it.

kalmar · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 22:59

There's actual mental illnesses can make you believe all that mad shit. Paranoid delusions, or whatever. As you spotted, sometimes they can seem perfectly normal up to the part where they suddenly start going on about the reptilian aliens and selling vacuum cleaners.

Dimrill · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 23:01

What a spacker. Everyone knows that the world's run by Gippynigs and food processors.

nickachu · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 23:18

Dimrill wrote:

What a spacker. Everyone knows that the world's run by Gippynigs and food processors.

Mmmmmmm guinea pig smoothies.

Wullie · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 6183

DBSnappa · **Posted:** Thu Sep 09, 2010 23:49

I'll never tire of the old proverb. Never argue with idiots because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Basically, there are people out there who are deluded and no amount of reason is going to get through. So, don't go there, you'll just get frustrated, or worse, start believing their shit.

tossrStu · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 1326

Ashmax < F-Max

sinister agent · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 7046

DBSnappa wrote:

I'll never tire of the old proverb. Never argue with idiots because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Basically, there are people out there who are deluded and no amount of reason is going to get through. So, don't go there, you'll just get frustrated, or worse, start believing their shit.

No YOUR gay.

I live in mortal fear of the day someone I care about falls victim to scientologists, pyramid schemers, or some other lunatic cult. It's bound to happen sooner or later. It was bad enough when a bunch of them suddenly claimed they were catholic, despite not agreeing with the church on anything, not agreeing with the pope on anything, not agreeing with the bible on anything, and not practicing catholic values. I don't know how I'd cope if someone came up to me and started a "this isn't a scam..." pitch.

It's always a scam. People don't come up to you in the street and tell you they're not going to mug you.

GovernmentYard · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5318

Obviously he's standing (or believes himself) to make a profit if Jen buys into his scheme, oddly enough he's back in touch after however long. I'd wait to see his first 100k before investing

But yes, mental illness. It's utterly typical behaviour. Just stay the fuck out of his way and hope against hope it doesn't grip anyone you are closer to than him.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

DBSnappa wrote:

Never argue with idiots

I thought you liked it here

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11864

DavPaz wrote:

DBSnappa wrote:

Never argue with idiots

I thought you liked it here

Good point!

Squirt · **Joined:** 31st Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 6587

He sounds a bit like one of those crazy "Sovereign Citizen" loons you get in the states - they're the ones MailA mentioned who claim to use a "loophole" to avoid paying taxes. It doesn't work.

He kind of has some of it right thought, doesn't he? You don't have to give your details to the police without being arrested ( I think ), modern currency is pretty much produced from thin air in that it is no longer backed with gold or silver and banks do sell on mortgage debt. It's not like they actually sell off the bit of paper you signed though, and I'm sure Craster could tell us how it actually works.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

I'm not even close to being an expert, but I'm pretty sure a mortgage is a legally binding contract, no?

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

If he's gone from being a normal, fun guy to what you describe, I would hazard a guess that he's now suffering from some sort of mental illness. Has he got a history of drug use?

Also, the bit about the UK being a corporation sounds like the beginning bit of the plot to Mutant Chronicles. Just saying, like.

That said, he's correct in that a country's government is a legal entity in the same way that a company is.

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:07

Mr Kissyfur wrote:

That said, he's correct in that a country's government is a legal entity in the same way that a company is.

Well, yes. The Leviathan and all that, without which life would be nasty, brutish, and short:

sdg · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:10

Sorry I meant to elaborate on that police point last night. We didn't disagree that he could refuse to provide details to police. Our issue with this came when he stated that if he was the only witness to a serious crime, he would still refuse to provide details or a statement because he doesn't recognise the "authority of the police over the public". This is the point that began to rile up my girlfriend and she asked that surely his sense of moral duty or whatever you want to call it would encourage him to come forward as a witness but he refused to even entertain that notion. Since she had had a few drinks by this point and since my family has recently been victims of serious crime she took this very personally and so made repeated attempts to discuss this particular point with him which he was more than happy to do but would not revise his position. We even asked what he would do if he himself was the victim of crime but he evaded that issue. :facepalm:

I wish I could link to his website so you could see how little info he gives about all this crap and how much he seems to be trying to talk himself into some of it!

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:13

superdupergill wrote:

Our issue with this came when he stated that if he was the only witness to a serious crime, he would still refuse to provide details or a statement because he doesn't recognise the "authority of the police over the public".

Conversely, would he come forward to provide someone with a defence, if, say, he knew they weren't at the scene?

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:14

superdupergill wrote:

I wish I could link to his website so you could see how little info he gives about all this crap and how much he seems to be trying to talk himself into some of it!

If it's anything like the conspiracy websites I've flicked through, it'll be very Web '94ish with lots of BIG CAPITALS, blinking text, a garish background, and hosted on whatever's replaced Geocities. Still, the truth will out somehow.

It's depressing because, as others have said, there's little you can say or point him to which would immeditatly change his views. Either keep in touch with him (he needs the companionship, by the sound of it) and don't bring up these issues in conversation, or never see him again.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:15

I'd be part of a scheme to build a pyramid. Anyone else interested?

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

You have my trowel

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:19

DavPaz wrote:

You have my trowel

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49237

Squirt wrote:

He kind of has some of it right thought, doesn't he? You don't have to give your details to the police without being arrested ( I think ), modern currency is pretty much produced from thin air in that it is no longer backed with gold or silver and banks do sell on mortgage debt. It's not like they actually sell off the bit of paper you signed though, and I'm sure Craster could tell us how it actually works.

Yeah, he's talking utter toss on the mortgage bit. If I lend you a tenner, and then go to someone else and say "lend us a tenner, I'll be able to pay you back when Squirt pays me back", that doesn't mean you no longer owe me a tenner.

sdg · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:45

Kern wrote:

superdupergill wrote:

I wish I could link to his website so you could see how little info he gives about all this crap and how much he seems to be trying to talk himself into some of it!

If it's anything like the conspiracy websites I've flicked through, it'll be very Web '94ish with lots of BIG CAPITALS, blinking text, a garish background, and hosted on whatever's replaced Geocities. Still, the truth will out somehow.

It's depressing because, as others have said, there's little you can say or point him to which would immeditatly change his views. Either keep in touch with him (he needs the companionship, by the sound of it) and don't bring up these issues in conversation, or never see him again.

He actually has a girlfriend at the moment and I think he has been with her for a few years now, despite being single for pretty much the whole time Jen was in Glasgow. I don't know if she is involved in all this stuff though. I suppose it would be hard for her to avoid it.

sdg · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:48

Craster wrote:

Squirt wrote:

He kind of has some of it right thought, doesn't he? You don't have to give your details to the police without being arrested ( I think ), modern currency is pretty much produced from thin air in that it is no longer backed with gold or silver and banks do sell on mortgage debt. It's not like they actually sell off the bit of paper you signed though, and I'm sure Craster could tell us how it actually works.

Yeah, he's talking utter toss on the mortgage bit. If I lend you a tenner, and then go to someone else and say "lend us a tenner, I'll be able to pay you back when Squirt pays me back", that doesn't mean you no longer owe me a tenner.

Trust me when I say that almost everything he said was utter toss, with occasional bits of truth sprinkled in but then perverted and used to substantiate more utter toss.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Craster wrote:

Squirt wrote:

He kind of has some of it right thought, doesn't he? You don't have to give your details to the police without being arrested ( I think ), modern currency is pretty much produced from thin air in that it is no longer backed with gold or silver and banks do sell on mortgage debt. It's not like they actually sell off the bit of paper you signed though, and I'm sure Craster could tell us how it actually works.

Yeah, he's talking utter toss on the mortgage bit. If I lend you a tenner, and then go to someone else and say "lend us a tenner, I'll be able to pay you back when Squirt pays me back", that doesn't mean you no longer owe me a tenner.

*stops dialling HSBC's mortgage service centre number*

Bum.

Be Excellent To Each Other

Pyramid Schemes
I think my friend's gone crazy

Who is online

Be Excellent To Each Other

Pyramid Schemes I think my friend's gone crazy

Who is online

Pyramid Schemes
I think my friend's gone crazy