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 Post subject: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 18:38 
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... -work.html

Quote:
Paul Bennett, professional standards director for Boots, told a committee of MPs that the pharmacy chain stocks such items for no other reason than that they are popular.

"There is certainly a consumer demand for these products," he said. "I have no evidence to suggest they are efficacious.

"It is about consumer choice for us and a large number of our customers believe they are efficacious."

His comments recall Gerald Ratner's infamous admission in 1991 that one of the gifts sold by his chain of jewellers was "total crap".

Mr Bennett made his comments to the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, which is investigating the scientific evidence behind homoeopathy.

The committee also heard from scientists and doctors who said that giving homeopathic remedies to patients on the NHS is unethical and a dubious use of public money.

The treatments, which are licensed by the government and offered through several NHS hospitals, have insufficient clinical evidence to support them, they said.

"If you prescribe a drug to patients that you know has no efficacy, on a basis which is essentially dishonest with a patient, I personally feel that is unethical," Dr James Thallon, medical director at the NHS West Kent primary care trust told MPs.

A £40 million industry in the UK, homeopathic remedies claim to be able to prevent yellow fever, typhoid, polio and even leukaemia, as well as cure symptoms ranging from toothache to hearing loss.

But there are growing concerns over whether the homeopathic remedies have any effect. Homeopathists differ from herbalists, who use a variety of plants to combat diseases, because their treatments are heavily diluted. There can often be as little as one millionth of the original ingredient in a homeopathic remedy.

Since 2006, manufacturers have been allowed to claim their products can treat specific ailments, as long as they can prove the treatment is safe.

The committee also heard there is little evidence the remedies work other than as a placebo. But Robert Wilson, chairman of the British Association of Homeopathic Manufacturers, told the committee that there is "strong evidence" that homoeopathy works.

"Boots are a very important retailer, they sell a great deal of these products. If these products don't work beyond the placebo effect, why do people keep buying them?"


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 18:52 

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You've been Ratner'ed!

/edit lol I read the first two lines, posted my reply then saw the very next line was about bloody Gerald Ratner. I'll read the whole thing next time :/


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 18:56 
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I'm sorry? There's a 'growing concern' homeopathy doesn't work?


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 19:54 
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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 19:59 
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Quote:
His comments recall Gerald Ratner's infamous admission in 1991 that one of the gifts sold by his chain of jewellers was "total crap".


Uh.. what? No they don't. He simply says they sell them because they're popular and people believe they work. He didn't say they don't or that people are rubbish or whatever.

Quote:
Since 2006, manufacturers have been allowed to claim their products can treat specific ailments, as long as they can prove the treatment is safe.


Why is it that every time I learn about a new law that's been brought in without my noticing it, I wish I hadn't?

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 23:13 
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Malabar Front wrote:
I'm sorry? There's a 'growing concern' homeopathy doesn't work?


I hear that there's a growing body of opinion that matter might consist of more than just fire, water, air and earth, and that perhaps it's not trivially possible to turn lead into gold through alchemical process, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 23:21 
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sinister agent wrote:
Quote:
His comments recall Gerald Ratner's infamous admission in 1991 that one of the gifts sold by his chain of jewellers was "total crap".


Uh.. what? No they don't. He simply says they sell them because they're popular and people believe they work. He didn't say they don't or that people are rubbish or whatever.

Quote:
Since 2006, manufacturers have been allowed to claim their products can treat specific ailments, as long as they can prove the treatment is safe.


Why is it that every time I learn about a new law that's been brought in without my noticing it, I wish I hadn't?

this. All of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 
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Fair play to him, at least he's being honest. I respect that more than if he came out and said, 'but-but they does work! Otherwise people wouldn't buy them!'

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:40 
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Half of everything Boots sell is stupid bullshit advertised on the basis of carefully worded ridiculous claims backed up with pseudo-science. Why is this even a story?


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:15 
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markg wrote:
Half of everything Boots sell is stupid bullshit advertised on the basis of carefully worded ridiculous claims backed up with pseudo-science. Why is this even a story?


Quite. It's not a Ratner either.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:28 
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markg wrote:
Half of everything Boots sell is stupid bullshit advertised on the basis of carefully worded ridiculous claims backed up with pseudo-science. Why is this even a story?

What, like Ibuprofen?

Of course, most of the time you're right. Recently though, one of their anti-ageing products (that I forget the name of, annoyingly) turned out to do a really good job of filling in wrinkles. No-one was more surprised than Boots to find out it actually worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:52 
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markg wrote:
Half of everything Boots sell is stupid bullshit advertised on the basis of carefully worded ridiculous claims backed up with pseudo-science. Why is this even a story?
Because the NHS prescribed homeopathic medicines with public money? Because there is a Commons Committee that might shut that down? Because a prominent retailer has given that Commons Committee some significant ammmunition?


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:57 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
markg wrote:
Half of everything Boots sell is stupid bullshit advertised on the basis of carefully worded ridiculous claims backed up with pseudo-science. Why is this even a story?
Because the NHS prescribed homeopathic medicines with public money? Because there is a Commons Committee that might shut that down? Because a prominent retailer has given that Commons Committee some significant ammmunition?


And, frankly, for a man who wants to will be King one day, Prince Charles should learn to keep his mouth shut on such matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:57 
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Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
markg wrote:
Half of everything Boots sell is stupid bullshit advertised on the basis of carefully worded ridiculous claims backed up with pseudo-science. Why is this even a story?
Because the NHS prescribed homeopathic medicines with public money? Because there is a Commons Committee that might shut that down? Because a prominent retailer has given that Commons Committee some significant ammmunition?


What's he saying that's controversial though?

"a large number of our customers believe they are efficacious".
I.e., it helps them because they think it will help them. A placebo.

Which is the only reason the NHS bother with it too, I'd assume.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:03 
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I'd argue against placebos being warranted under prescription. For a start the cost. But also because they can persuade people a problem is gone when it isn't. (Yay, my cancer has been cured by hooboojooboo extract pills, as it's african and natural, and so must be excellent. Oh no, I was wrong)


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:05 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Yay, my cancer has been cured by hooboojooboo extract pills, as it's african and natural, and so must be excellent. Oh no, I was wrong


Fair points, but don't confuse herbal extracts (i.e. medicine) with homeopathy or sugar pills.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:07 
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Part of me quite likes the idea of someone paying £6.50 for sugar pills. Although I'd be pretty damn livid if a doctor decided to treat me with a placebo.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:08 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Part of me quite likes the idea of someone paying £6.50 for sugar pills. Although I'd be pretty damn livid if a doctor decided to treat me with a placebo.

Not if it worked you wouldn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:11 
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Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:12 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?

I'm going to hazard a guess at: Decrease its chances of working through research?

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:15 
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Pretend it's tamazepam so you can sell the pills to bored teenagers?


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:15 
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I'm not exactly someone who a placebo would work on even if I didn't do that. See: the legions of anti-deps I've been on which have had no effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:16 
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Apparently, hypochondria is treatable with placebos.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:22 
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kalmar wrote:
Apparently, Emo is treatable with listening to Placebo.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:31 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?


Set up your bunsen burner and a small distillation kit?

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:33 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?


Thank fuck you didn't do a BA?

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:34 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?


Whilst I think of it, I went looking for proper hard copies of my stuff in the library yesterday. After about 20 minutes, I realised that no girl would actually want to see them. So I skulked away and searched Westlaw for stupid terms.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:34 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Although I'd be pretty damn livid if a doctor decided to treat me with a placebo.

"Stick this American alternative emo rock combo up your anus 3 times a day."

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:36 
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MaliA wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?


Whilst I think of it, I went looking for proper hard copies of my stuff in the library yesterday. After about 20 minutes, I realised that no girl would actually want to see them. So I skulked away and searched Westlaw for stupid terms.

Heh - I used to do that as a trainee. It's surprising how many cases you get for "vagina" and "dildo".

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 
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As my missus has actually tried homeopathy (yes I also think, sorry, did I say think, I meant "know") it's mostly bullshit, my feelings are the other side of things which never get mentioned when you get treated homeopathical. What I'm talking about is the draconian diet you get put on and it's this I think is doing all the work. My missus had really bad candida and being put on a diet of no alcohol, no wheat, no dairy, no sugar, no red meat, no pork or bacon for two months almost certainly had more of an effect on her wellbeing that taking sugar bloody tablets.

I'm always reminded of that joke about the new homeopathic department at a hospital collapsing as the scaffolding they used to make it was one millionth the strength of normal scaffolding.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:39 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Yeah. Placebos don't tend to work if you know their nature. Given my degree in biochemistry, what do you think the first thing I do when I get prescribed a new treatment is?


Whilst I think of it, I went looking for proper hard copies of my stuff in the library yesterday. After about 20 minutes, I realised that no girl would actually want to see them. So I skulked away and searched Westlaw for stupid terms.

Heh - I used to do that as a trainee. It's surprising how many cases you get for "vagina" and "dildo".


For a scintilla temporis I thought you were talking about going in search of science papers about the Beta-folds in the Roquin protein and how you were going to show girls them and then they would be impressed.

But typing "Dildo" into law and medical journal search engines is probably a better bet.

Now, I'm sad and am going to fix a computerator instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:39 
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Does this include stuff like cod liver oil? Cos my mother found that didn't work but the miracle (and far more expensive) shark cartilage has. Oh, and echin-fucking-acea. A fortune for a tiny number of ridicuous blue pills that probably don't do fuck all and contain even less.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:44 
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MetalAngel wrote:
Does this include stuff like cod liver oil? Cos my mother found that didn't work but the miracle (and far more expensive) shark cartilage has. Oh, and echin-fucking-acea. A fortune for a tiny number of ridicuous blue pills that probably don't do fuck all and contain even less.

Funnily enough, the scientists who work for echinacea producing compnies say it works, and the rest tend to find it has no effects in their studies. Guess which one has the greatest bias.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:46 
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MetalAngel wrote:
Does this include stuff like cod liver oil? Cos my mother found that didn't work but the miracle (and far more expensive) shark cartilage has. Oh, and echin-fucking-acea. A fortune for a tiny number of ridicuous blue pills that probably don't do fuck all and contain even less.

Those are herbal remedies, which are a bit different.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:51 
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isn't the very definition of homeopathy that it can't be proven to work in a traditional way?

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:59 
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romanista wrote:
isn't the very definition of homeopathy that it can't ... work


Snip off those last few words and you're there.

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 13:06 
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"Business sells things people want to buy" SHOCKA.

Good that the guy was prepared to stand up and say on record it's likely bullshit and Boots don't really care, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 13:10 
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BikNorton wrote:
Good that the guy was forced by a Commons Commission working to a legal standard of proof to give a written statement that it's likely bullshit and Boots don't really care, though.
FeeX.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 14:18 
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MetalAngel wrote:
Does this include stuff like cod liver oil? Cos my mother found that didn't work but the miracle (and far more expensive) shark cartilage has. Oh, and echin-fucking-acea. A fortune for a tiny number of ridicuous blue pills that probably don't do fuck all and contain even less.


Miss Malabar moans if I don't take Cod Liver Oil and Glucosamine tablets for my joints, which would probably explain why she's always moaning. I've always been sceptical of such things; none of the doctors or consultants I've visited have ever mentioned them.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 15:35 
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Malabar Front wrote:
MetalAngel wrote:
Does this include stuff like cod liver oil? Cos my mother found that didn't work but the miracle (and far more expensive) shark cartilage has. Oh, and echin-fucking-acea. A fortune for a tiny number of ridicuous blue pills that probably don't do fuck all and contain even less.


Miss Malabar moans if I don't take Cod Liver Oil and Glucosamine tablets for my joints, which would probably explain why she's always moaning. I've always been sceptical of such things; none of the doctors or consultants I've visited have ever mentioned them.


If I don't take those fuck-off massive glucosamine tablets, my hands seize up completely. YMMV though.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 15:40 
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I've heard glucosamine for joint problems described as "probably about as useful as eating hair to try and cure baldness".


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 15:41 
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baron of techno

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Yeah, probably.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 15:43 
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But on the other hand I know lots of people who swear by it and some doctors even prescribe it although I'm not sure how much of this is because it is very cheap, safe and there is just enough evidence for it not to be classed as a complete placebo.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:50 
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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:11 
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Mr Dave wrote:
Although I'd be pretty damn livid if a doctor decided to treat me with a placebo.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 21:51 

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markg wrote:
I've heard glucosamine for joint problems described as "probably about as useful as eating hair to try and cure baldness".


I wonder if Donald Trump has tried that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:43 
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I took a homeopathic remedy for a nasty cold a couple of years back.

Despite being hugely sceptical (Mrs Caveman got the tablets for me), it worked an absolute treat, without making me feel like shit-warmed-up, a la Lemsip et al. Normally, I get hit for at least 10 days - 2 weeks with a cold, once it's taken hold, like this one had done, but it had lessened virtually immediately and had completely gone altogether within 2-3 days, which was unprecedented.

Placebo effect? I was fully expecting zero effect, yet got the precise opposite. Hardly scientific evidence to be sure, but hey, it worked for me. Interestingly, I haven't had a single cold since then, either.

£4 well spent...

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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:49 
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Part physicist, part WARLORD

Joined: 2nd Apr, 2008
Posts: 13421
Location: Chester, UK
Captain Caveman wrote:
Placebo effect? I was fully expecting zero effect, yet got the precise opposite. Hardly scientific evidence to be sure, but hey, it worked for me. Interestingly, I haven't had a single cold since then, either.

£4 well spent...


Your expectations, even negative, are brilliant at making stuff happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:56 
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Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 32624
Captain Caveman wrote:
Placebo effect? I was fully expecting zero effect, yet got the precise opposite.
Placebo effect means that cheap painkillers presented in the packaging for expensive painkillers are reported by patients to be more effective than in their own packaging, even when the patients are told the switch has been made.


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 Post subject: Re: Boots:'we sell homeopathic remedies because they sell, not..
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 13:09 
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EvilTrousers

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 3073
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
Placebo effect? I was fully expecting zero effect, yet got the precise opposite.
Placebo effect means that cheap painkillers presented in the packaging for expensive painkillers are reported by patients to be more effective than in their own packaging, even when the patients are told the switch has been made.


Also if the person supplying the placebo is confident in the healing properties of what they are handing out (regardless of actual efficacy) that has a measurable effect as well.

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