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 Post subject: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:49 
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Gogmagog

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Right, so the Daily Express run an article on the HPV vaccine, here saying :

Quote:
THE cervical cancer vaccine may be riskier and more deadly than the cancer it is designed to prevent, a leading expert who developed the drug has warned.


hmmm I thought, that's rather interesting.

So I pop on to pubmed, the search engine for the emdical journals and have a look for her.

Well, it appears that the Express's expert, Dr Harper has pubished a paper here:

Public Health Genomics. 2009;12(5-6):319-30. Epub 2009 Aug 11.

The abstract is this:

Quote:
"Cervarix® and Gardasil®, 2 human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines, have been approved and implemented globally in young adolescent women with the hope of reducing the incidence of cervical cancer several decades hence. This program is dependent on the concept of 'immunobridging': antibody titers generated in young adolescents that are the same or higher than generated in HPV-naive 16- to 26-year-old women, the population in which efficacy is proven. Likewise, realizing a decline in cervical cancer from young adolescent female vaccination depends on the duration of vaccine efficacy, and the population coverage reached. While we patiently wait for results from our young adolescent vaccination programs, newly released data indicates that the immunogenicity and efficacy of the vaccines for young adult women with prior HPV exposure is equal or superior to that seen for young adolescents. This same concept of immunobridging supported by limited efficacy data offers the potential to reduce cervical cancer precursors within just a few years in our young sexually active adult women, a population secondary to our young adolescents. The HPV vaccines are not therapeutic. Neither vaccine will inhibit an already HPV-infected basal epithelial cell which continues to transform differentiated epithelial layers into cervical dysplasias. There is a clinical hope, though, already supported by early data, that the vaccines are capable of neutralizing HPV virions in host tissues from both auto-inoculated infections and infections in other organs than the cervix, thereby making it possible for these vaccines to prevent less common HPV-associated cancers of the penis, vagina, vulva, anus, oral cavity and oro-pharynx. Both vaccines have been shown to be generally safe in the phase II and phase III randomized controlled trials over 3-6.4 years. Post-marketing surveillance of Cervarix and Gardasil continues to show that they are safe for most women despite rarely occurring serious events."


and also, last year,

Gynecol Oncol. 2008 Sep;110(3 Suppl 1):S11-7. Epub 2008 Jul 22.Click here to read

She publishes:

Quote:
"Cervical cancer of both squamous and adenocarcinoma types is considered virtually 100% attributable to human papillomavirus (HPV) infection. HPV-16 and -18 are the predominant types worldwide accounting for over 70% of all cervical cancer. Persistent oncogenic HPV infection has been confirmed as one key determinant in the development of cervical precancer (cervical intraepithelial neoplasia [CIN] 2+) and cervical cancer. The impact of prophylactic HPV vaccination on the reduction of virological and cytohistological outcomes related to HPV-16 and -18 has been evaluated in clinical trials with the HPV-16/18 AS04-adjuvanted cervical cancer vaccine (Cervarix™) through a Phase IIb study with a long-term follow-up of efficacy up to 5.5 years, and a large Phase III trial in women 15–25 years of age. These individual studies include populations with different underlying risk factors, each of which shows high efficacy against both HPV-16/18 persistent infections and CIN2+. When the two studies are combined and the respective populations are evaluated, vaccine efficacy against HPV-16 and -18-related CIN2+ remains at 100%. As this vaccine is used over time in universal prophylactic HPV-16/18 vaccination of girls and women, reductions in cervical cancers at both the individual and public health levels will be appreciated."


Fair annoyed me that has.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:53 
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So, in summery, it's not really that dangerous?

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:54 
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Express printing bollocks and more than likely taking quotes well out of context. I might email her later.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:54 
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But, yeah, perfectly safe, does what it says on the tin.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:00 
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Email the Press Complaints Commission?


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:01 
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Let's not have another MMR-esque tabloid frenzy, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:02 
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BikNorton wrote:
Email the Press Complaints Commission?


I've reached the pinnacle of lawyer rage over this now so I've tutted and will write a letter.

I will email someone over this today, possibly Dr Lave as he knows more stuff about doing things like that than I do.

I might email teh writer as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:03 
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myp wrote:
Let's not have another MMR-esque tabloid frenzy, please.


Most deffo agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:22 
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I might CC: Dr harper into my email.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:30 
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Sent an email to the Express's ehalth editor and i think i got the email of the article writer correct. Have read the PCC code and might email them as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:31 
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myp wrote:
Let's not have another MMR-esque tabloid frenzy, please.


Think it may already have happened. There is a huge thread with loads of *bleeped out* on the Ravelry forums saying that they aren't gong to vaccinate their kids because it has been proven so risky, several people have already died, and because their little babies won't be sleeping around when they are older because they are going to bring them up right.

I had to hide the thread from view because I would have ended up one night, when tired and grumpy, telling them all what I thought of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:38 
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Mimi wrote:
their little babies won't be sleeping around when they are older because they are going to bring them up right.


I have express plans to go round finding the daughters of these people when they're older. They'll be dangerously repressed, or ridiculously pervy. It'll be great fun either way. :hat:

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:40 
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sinister agent wrote:
Mimi wrote:
their little babies won't be sleeping around when they are older because they are going to bring them up right.


I have express plans to go round finding the daughters of these people when they're older. They'll be dangerously repressed, or ridiculously pervy. It'll be great fun either way. :hat:


Heh.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:47 
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The tabloid hysterics over this are mental. In the UK, the Daily Mail is campaigning against the vaccination, saying it's dangerous. In Ireland, though, the Daily Mail is campaigning for it, because it's not government funded. Mental.

More on the delicious Ben Goldacre's website.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:51 
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Just finished reading "Bad Science" this covers the general media coverage of MMR. Quite funny really, yet also worrying that people believe the media over government because they think there is some underlying reason the government want to kill everyone.

By the way "Bad Science" is a interesting read but at the same time a bit of a boring rant about misguided people, wouldn't really recommend.

Also "suffered serious health problems, including seizures, fatigue or joint and muscle pain, since their jabs"... joint and muscle pain seriously? Had they been admitted to hospital or was it just a mentally triggered wank in the head from the stress the parents have placed into their kids?

I mean 1 Million girls immunised verses 19 (BBC reports 400 or so) cases of possible side effect none of which have killed anyone... bar one possible investigation which likely will come to down to some other reason.

People should really be more aware of the "http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/" this help track issues with medication also.


Also "Dr Richard Halvorsen" ... please review his info:

"Who am I?
I am a GP (Family Doctor) in central London where I have worked for over 20 years.
I am trained in acupuncture and homeopathy and incorporate complementary therapies into my clinical practice alongside orthodox medical treatment.
I have spent much time investigating childhood vaccines, about which I have written a book."


Oh here he is answering questions... rather badly: LINK

Why are peoples sooooo silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:53 
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I emailed the health editor of the Express and got a reply saying to contact the sunday express instead, so emailed he editor of the sunady express and am about to email the features editor.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:13 
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I'd like to suggest that at the end of each day, all non-recycled copies of a paper be collected in one of its publisher's buildings, selected at random, and set alight.

If they're capable of publishing the next day, they're allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:16 
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I got a reply:

"Dear David,

Thanks for your email. Dr Harper did indeed express the concerns as quoted and I read the story over to her before publication to make sure she was happy with it.
The jab may be "effective" but that does not mean it is not without side effects - which become more apparent after initial trials because so many more girls are being innoculated. It is a question of risk benefit analysis as with all drugs and many experts fear the risks may outweigh the benefits especially as cervical cancers are usually picked up with cervical smear tests.


If you look up Dr Harper on google you will find she has been quoted in many other places expressing her concerns.


Best wishes,

Lucy Johnston
"

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:19 
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MaliA wrote:
If you look up Dr Harper on google you will find she has been quoted in many other places expressing her concerns.


Oh for...


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:19 
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I read an article in one of the papers in the workshop at work the other day which was written after it was discovered the girl who died had an underlying condition and the jab wasn't to blame. It was an article about some mum who had decided she was worried about the side effects (and the recent death caused by the jag had proven her fears right) but would never stop her 15 year old daughetr from doing what she wanted to do.

So she started 'researching' online. From the tone of the article I suspect her research method was typing into google 'dangers of cervical cancer jag' or 'illness caused by cervical cancer jag' [sarcasm]so obviously everything she found was incredibly balanced [/sarcasm]

She then presented all the information she had found to her daughter and told her daughter she was risking her life by getting this jag or could suffer from any number of other crazy side effects. So her daughter made an educated decision not to get the jag.

I was raging!


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:20 
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kalmar wrote:
MaliA wrote:
If you look up Dr Harper on google you will find she has been quoted in many other places expressing her concerns.


Oh for...


It beggars belief, doesn't it.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:21 
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However, if this is true
MaliA wrote:
Dr Harper did indeed express the concerns as quoted and I read the story over to her before publication to make sure she was happy with it.

Then I'm not sure what to think.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:24 
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As a journalist I'd be concerned that my medical expert couldn't read my monosyllabic simple-speak for herself.


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:25 
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Only, if you look at the quotes in teh SExpres's article, and compare them to teh quotes here, they are truncated, amssively, and it completely changes the context in which they were made.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:27 
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Express:

Quote:
Dr Harper, of the University of Missouri-Kansas, said she believed the risks – “small but real” – could be worse than the risk of developing cancer itself.


CBS:

Quote:
According to Dr. Harper, assessing the true adverse event risk of Gardasil, and comparing it to the risk of cervical cancer can be tricky and complex. "The number of women who die from cervical cancer in the US every year is small but real. It is small because of the success of the Pap screening program."

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:28 
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So "Dr Harper did indeed express the concerns as quoted" is an outright lie to you as well as in the story, then? I've not read the story, see, and I'm not going to, because I've done far more than enough exploding this week already.


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:45 
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So if I understand this correctly the Doctor did say those three words in that order but in a context that meant to convey the exact opposite meaning of what the newspaper suggests?

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:47 
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I'd ask for a list of the "many experts" she mentions and explicit details of what their supposed concerns are. Also, how severe those 'concerns' are - any good scientist can have a mild, or even theoretical concern about something, without this meaning they're not in favour of that something nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:50 
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How can she say "it may be more deadlier than the disease" or "the risks outweigh the benefits" if, you know, nothing backs that up?


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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:53 
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kalmar wrote:
How can she say "it may be more deadlier than the disease"


Well quite. You should be struck off for attempting to qualify a superlative.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:55 
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kalmar wrote:
How can she say "it may be more deadlier than the disease" or "the risks outweigh the benefits" if, you know, nothing backs that up?


One supposes that if current death rate for cervical cancer is say 1 in 1000 and the death rate due to complications of the vaccine is 0.3 in 1000 but you give teh vaccine to 10,000 people then that would work, I think that's the point, maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:56 
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Craster wrote:
kalmar wrote:
How can she say "it may be more deadlier than the disease"


Well quite. You should be struck off for writing for the Express.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:58 
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Rather amusingly, I posted about Dr Harper's publications on the safety of the HPV Vaccine here and they've been removed twice now.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:59 
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MaliA wrote:
kalmar wrote:
How can she say "it may be more deadlier than the disease" or "the risks outweigh the benefits" if, you know, nothing backs that up?


One supposes that if current death rate for cervical cancer is say 1 in 1000 and the death rate due to complications of the vaccine is 0.3 in 1000 but you give teh vaccine to 10,000 people then that would work, I think that's the point, maybe.


No it doesn't?

Malc

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:00 
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Well, THEN the vaccine would kill more than the disease.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:04 
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MaliA wrote:
Well, THEN the vaccine would kill more than the disease.


Only if you are still looking at the 1000 people with cancer.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:06 
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Malc wrote:
MaliA wrote:
Well, THEN the vaccine would kill more than the disease.


Only if you are still looking at the 1000 people with cancer.

Malc


I'm not disagreeing it's a poor way to shape an argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:27 
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I have been reading this with interest all morning before I bothered to log on; I admire your efforts in fighting the good fight for common sense and journalistic integrity, please persevere and feed back. I'm not really sure the line of "she has been misquoted like this in lots of places on the internet so it has become the truth and we're right to misquote her that way too" is satisfactory 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:29 
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I'm not doubting the journalists integrity for a moment, I'm just somewhat surprised that Dr Thingy has seemingly gone off and done a laod of research, published it at least twice, in two different journals, and then changed her mind over iot all and gone "DANGEROUS! BAD!"

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:30 
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"Dear Mr Afterthought,

I have passed your note on to our medical editor.

Kind regards,"

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:30 
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MaliA wrote:
I'm not doubting the journalists integrity for a moment, I'm just somewhat surprised that Dr Thingy has seemingly gone off and done a laod of research, published it at least twice, in two different journals, and then changed her mind over iot all and gone "DANGEROUS! BAD!"

Sorry, "journalist" "integrity" "Daily Express" 8)

They're as bad as each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:31 
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I'm avoiding libel as best I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:34 
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MaliA wrote:
I'm avoiding libel as best I can.

It's not libel if it's true. Also - gratuitous insult defence. Just add some "cunt"s and you're fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:37 
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add some cunts and you're fine.


A mantra for our age.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:37 
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MaliA wrote:
I'm avoiding libel as best I can.

Surely you are not the party who is treading closest to libel here... although the fact that the scientist in question has allegedly been read the article and approved it, even though it presents her as being opposed to the vaccine due to the risk of side effects when her published research shows her to be in favour of it since the rewards greatly outweigh the very slight risk, has me somewhat baffled. Either the Express is lying to you to shut you up, or they "compensated" her well for her change of opinion because they couldn't get any other scientists to support they campaign with suitable quotes...

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:38 
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Mr Chris wrote:
Also - gratuitous insult defence.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread too much, but can you explain what this is in as many or few words as you see fit silver plate?

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:38 
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TheAlbin0Kid wrote:
Either the Express is lying to you to shut you up, or they "compensated" her well for her change of opinion because they couldn't get any other scientists to support they campaign with suitable quotes...

Occam's Razor, Daniel. Occam's Razor!

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:39 
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Mr Chris wrote:
MaliA wrote:
I'm avoiding libel as best I can.

It's not libel if it's true. Also - gratuitous insult defence. Just add some "cunt"s and you're fine.


I'm too busy for shit like that at the moment. I've a bed that needs stripping and some sheets washing, a computer to go in the loft and something else I've forgotten.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:39 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
Posts: 48964
Location: Cheshire
TheAlbin0Kid wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
Also - gratuitous insult defence.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread too much, but can you explain what this is in as many or few words as you see fit silver plate?


Look it up for yourself, you cunt.

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 Post subject: Re: Daily Express
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 13:40 
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Pyrotechnician!!!1

Joined: 13th Jul, 2009
Posts: 3357
Location: Stockport
MaliA wrote:
TheAlbin0Kid wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
Also - gratuitous insult defence.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread too much, but can you explain what this is in as many or few words as you see fit silver plate?

Look it up for yourself, you cunt.

I'm too busy for shit like that at the moment. I've a bed that needs stripping and some sheets washing, a computer to go in the loft and something else I've forgotten.

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